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The sin nature of the believer is just as strong after salvation as it was before salvation, and the believer actually has more temptations then he did as an unbeliever. And he can give in to those temptations just as easily as he did as an unbeliever. That doesn't mean that he was never saved. A believer can for whatever reason begin to neglect his spiritual life, or he may never have been much interested in his spiritual life in the first place. In that case he is fully capable of living just as he did as an unbeliever. Yet he is still eternally saved. He will lose rewards in eternity and he can come under divine discipline in time, but he will not lose his eternal life.
Believers who fail to grow spiritually, who keep sinning and never confess their sins, and who don't have any works which are acceptable to God are saved and will be in the kingdom, but they won't inherit the blessings and privileges they otherwise would have.
I said something in another thread about truth and application and I think you are defending a truth but applying it completely wrong here. Took me a while to figure that out, but your posts in another thread where you enjoyed taunting me with pictures of half-naked women did get me thinking about your defense of OSAS..
The first bolded part is simply a lie, our wills are changed when we are born again, and God gives power to resist temptation we didn't have before that. If you have truly received Christ, sin will not have dominion over you anymore. If sin has dominion over you, I'd suggest you take another look why you are defending OSAS, is it because you want to have your sin and feel comfortable about your eternal life?
Romans 6:12-14 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
I am not saying believers are perfect, far from it. But if you think a believer is just as easily overcome by temptation as before, just as capable as living as he did as an unbeliever, just as easily sin and never confess their sins as before.. then what exactly is rebirth? What exactly is the power of Jesus Christ in that persons life, of the Holy Spirit in that persons heart? Try and read Romans 8, here's a part of it:
Romans 8:4-8 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
12-14 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
I hope you'll think about these verses, Paul didn't need to defend the truth of election and perseverance (later in Romans 8) by pretending that people can live as carnally as they want and still be saved.
James 2
[17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Anothwr excellent post.
Abraham's faith was imputed for righteousness when he was obedient. Jesus said in John 14:[15] If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Mike - I was asked a question recently: "If you were accused by a court of being a Christian, would you have enough evidence to convict you?, "
I said something in another thread about truth and application and I think you are defending a truth but applying it completely wrong here. Took me a while to figure that out, but your posts in another thread where you enjoyed taunting me with pictures of half-naked women did get me thinking about your defense of OSAS..
The first bolded part is simply a lie, our wills are changed when we are born again, and God gives power to resist temptation we didn't have before that. If you have truly received Christ, sin will not have dominion over you anymore. If sin has dominion over you, I'd suggest you take another look why you are defending OSAS, is it because you want to have your sin and feel comfortable about your eternal life?
Romans 6:12-14 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
I am not saying believers are perfect, far from it. But if you think a believer is just as easily overcome by temptation as before, just as capable as living as he did as an unbeliever, just as easily sin and never confess their sins as before.. then what exactly is rebirth? What exactly is the power of Jesus Christ in that persons life, of the Holy Spirit in that persons heart? Try and read Romans 8, here's a part of it:
Romans 8:4-8 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
12-14 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
I hope you'll think about these verses, Paul didn't need to defend the truth of election and perseverance (later in Romans 8) by pretending that people can live as carnally as they want and still be saved.
Chanokh, while the enabling power of the Holy Spirit is available to the believer who is filled with the Spirit and therefore in fellowship, to empower him to execute the Christian way of life (you cannot do it on your own energy of the flesh), it is equally true that the believer's sin nature is just as strong as it was when he was an unbeliever. The believer still has his volition and can for whatever reason (the cares of this life, persecution, a tragic incident in his life, etc . . .) go negative. It can happen to believers when they don't make their spiritual life top priority.
It is absolutely possible for a believer to backslide with regard to the spiritual life, and even get to the point where he no longer believes in Christ. He is still eternally saved because once a person has received Christ as Savior he is sealed unto the day of redemption. Our salvation depends totally on God, rather than on us.
Now while the believer should not give himself over to sin, he is fully capable of doing so because he has volition. If the believer fails to name his sins as per 1 John 1:9 he remains out of fellowship, and the longer he stays out of fellowship the more he will begin to backslide. ''Qui non proficit deficit/he who does not advance loses ground.'' Now you may be one of those who think that such a person was never saved in the first place, but I don't hold to such a view and neither does the Bible.
Yes, if you live after the flesh, you will die (Romans 8:13). The question is, what kind of death was Paul referring to? He wasn't referring to spiritual death or to the second death of the lake of fire because the believer cannot lose his salvation. The Bible refers to seven different kinds or categories of death. In this instance, it is carnal death, and after an extended period of time, temporal death. Carnal death is simply being out of fellowship and in a state of carnality. Extended periods of carnal dearth can be referred to as temporal death which simply means that the eternally saved believer has a useless spiritual life devoid of any spiritual dynamics. Such a believer is not fulfilling the purpose for which God has left him on this earth after salvation. But again, he is still eternally saved.
See Heb. 10: [36] For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
If a person truly repents of his sins, he or she is immediately forgiven of his past sins and is given the gift of the HolySiirit which makes him a new creation and able not to commit a SIN UNTO DEATH, reffered to in Rom. 6: [16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
And 1 John:5:[16] If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
[/u]
You never actually address anything I say and simply try using a different verse or passage to argue that you can lose your salvation.
The sin unto death is not a loss of salvation. It is not a reference to spiritual death or to the second death. It is a reference to the believer being taken out of this life under maximum divine discipline and taken home to heaven in disgrace.
And you don't repent of sins in order to be forgiven of your sins. You don't have to promise that you'll never commit that sin again, you don't have to feel sorry about the sin. You simply do what 1 John 1:9 states which is simply to acknowledge to God that you sinned. This puts you back into fellowship under the control of the Holy Spirit until the next time you sin. And if the believer is growing in his spiritual life then he might grow out of whatever his pet sin happens to be.
Mike - I was asked a question recently: "If you were accused by a court of being a Christian, would you have enough evidence to convict you?, "
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
It's not about me. Don't make it personal.
Mike, I was not asking you to answer the question. It was jusr a hypothetical question for anyone who us in doubt of being a true Christian, just between him and his God. I believe if I have truly repented and truly believe that Jesus is truly my Savior; that my life should reveal that I have some of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. If I have not laid down some of the things that I KNOW to be wrong, I would have some doubt about my salvation. Jesus said in John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
I know that even if we have been give the gift of the Holy Spirit, we will still commit careless sins every dqy, but if we truly love Jesus, His Spirit will generally guide us to grow spiritually.
Paul wrote in Rom. 7:6 Now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Last edited by Robert M Prince; 08-06-2016 at 05:13 AM..
The genesis of this theory is quite interesting revealing as it does the progression from primitive misunderstanding of Christ's achievement. In it earliest form, it was about Christ as the victor over the evil that dominates humanity. Of course, at the time, the idea that that evil resides in us as our animal nature was not understood. Everything was externalized. So the Christus Victor theory or ransom theory took hold with the earliest Fathers. In their minds, Jesus tricked the principalities (devil) into killing Him and losing the right to the souls of everyone else.
OF course, what was actually the case is that Jesus overcame His animal nature completely, even through scourging and crucifixion, elevating His human consciousness (Spirit) to be equal to God's Holy Spirit and connecting all human consciousness to God forever (including our dead ancestors in so-called sleep). Anselm is the main corrupter of the Christus Victor theory into the penal substitution theory based on the ancient CONTEXT of a wrathful God who needed to be appeased by blood sacrifices. It was all downhill from there.
Most are, nate. It is a travesty.
Judging is endemic to their judgmental, punishing God so they emulate it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
You never actually address anything I say and simply try using a different verse or passage to argue that you can lose your salvation.
You are correct that we cannot lose our salvation, Mike, because we have nothing to do with gaining it. Jesus did that. But much of the rest of your theology is wrong based as it is in the CONTEXT of a wrathful God who needed to be appeased by blood sacrifices. God IS agape love.
You are correct that we cannot lose our salvation, Mike, because we have nothing to do with gaining it. Jesus did that. But much of the rest of your theology is wrong based as it is in the CONTEXT of a wrathful God who needed to be appeased by blood sacrifices. God IS agape love.
I am not the one in error. You are. And wrong headed as well. The Scriptures are clear that Jesus died for the sins of the world. That He bore our sins in His own body. You refuse to accept that fact because you prefer your own asinine non-Biblical beliefs about God and about Jesus who is Himself God. Something you also deny. While God is love, there is much more to Him, such as His righteousness and His justice which must carry out the demands of His righteousness which requires judging sin and evil.
Jesus didn't die on the cross just to show His love. He showed His love by taking upon Himself the penalty for our sins that was due us.
You are correct that we cannot lose our salvation, Mike, because we have nothing to do with gaining it. Jesus did that. But much of the rest of your theology is wrong based as it is in the CONTEXT of a wrathful God who needed to be appeased by blood sacrifices. God IS agape love.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
I am not the one in error. You are. And wrong headed as well. The Scriptures are clear that Jesus died for the sins of the world. That He bore our sins in His own body. You refuse to accept that fact because you prefer your own asinine non-Biblical beliefs about God and about Jesus who is Himself God. Something you also deny. While God is love, there is much more to Him, such as His righteousness and His justice which must carry out the demands of His righteousness which requires judging sin and evil.
Jesus didn't die on the cross just to show His love. He showed His love by taking upon Himself the penalty for our sins that was due us.
If what happened to Jesus was what God NEEDED to happen to appease His Holiness or justice or righteousness or whatever other nonsense you believe, why did Jesus ask God to "Forgive them they know not what they do."??? Why would they need to be forgiven for doing what God needed to have done????
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