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When we limit God salvation to just man we do much damage to the scriptures, and put a limit on the only one who is without limit. We diminish the fullness of the cross of our Lord by saying it only reaches to mankind. ALL THINGS in heaven and earth and under the earth are reconciled by way of the cross. And yes that includes Satan.
When you say that satan and demons will be saved, you fail to understand why the cross was relevant to human beings alone. Why was the life, suffering, death and ressurection necessary for the Lord Jesus Christ? Why all those years here on earth, you'd think that 1 minute would be enough and that a pinch in the finger would be plenthy for the infinitely Holy Son of God to atone for our sin. But that wasn't the Fathers plan, it was the Fathers will that His Son should truly become one of us - truly become a man and truly experience what it was like to be a human being, to be tempted in all things yet without sin. Why should that be important? So He could be the proper Mediator between God and man, having fully experienced and suffered what we suffer, He can truly relate to our cause and weakness - nothing we experience is strange to the Lord Jesus Christ - and yet in His Divinity He also is fully God and therefore the perfect Person to be the means to reconcile sinful humanity back to a relationship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
He not only experienced what we experience, but He also fully bore Gods wrath for our sin - that is how much He loved and loves us.
But clearly this sacrifice He made was a human sacrifice, He came in the flesh and suffered in the flesh, He did not become a demon to relate to demonic beings and He did not sacrifice Himself for their reconciliation - to say such a thing is absolutely absurd - the Bible makes it clear that satan is only awaiting eternal destruction.
Infact when demons are confronted with the Lord Jesus, they know there will be an appointed time for their torment:
Matthew 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
It is clear that the demons know that Jesus is the Son of God, they "believe" in Him, yet does the Scripture anywhere say they can repent from their demonic ways and become reconciled to God? No, their faith is not unto salvation as true faith would be for human beings - there is no possibility for repentance for satan or demons as there is for us.
Look at what James, the brother of our Lord says:
James 2:19-20 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
And do you know why I am convinced you are unsaved, because you cannot spiritually discern these things. You haven't repented from your sin, put your faith wholly in Jesus Christ alone for your salvation and received the Holy Spirit as a surety of your eternal life, because in your ignorant zeal you proclaim that demons can be saved - which is in itself nothing short of a demonic and false doctrine. Repent while there is time because the Lord doesn't want you to perish like satan and his demonic angels, and as a human being you actually can be saved and receive eternal life my friend.
Saved is the utterly the wrong word. Try reconcile. We were one with the Father, as was 'satan', and we will be again, everyone. The God of reward and punishment is small, puny, doesnt exist and is a construct of mankind. The parable of the two sons has it right that the wayward son always belonged to the Father. The stay at home son is representing the church, busy judging the other brother.
As for you, let this be a warning from the God of Israel to repent and stop lying and twisting His Word or that everlasting torment you are trying to refute will be your lot:
Ah, I love it when fundamentalists get so unglued that the only meaningful response they can trot out is the ol' "If you don't accept MY truth you'll go to hell and burn forever."
Reminds me every time of why I dropped Christianity like a red-hot potato.
Ah, I love it when fundamentalists get so unglued that the only meaningful response they can trot out is the ol' "If you don't accept MY truth you'll go to hell and burn forever."
Reminds me every time of why I dropped Christianity like a red-hot potato.
There's nothing wrong with warning people about danger, actually it would be cruel not too. But I find it interesting that Jesus didn't say "you too will all be tormented in hell for eternity"
I don't know. I'll leave the door open as a possibility since the Bible could support either annihilation or eternal torment. I just hope it's annihilation. The only way I can see eternal conscious torment being just is if we deserved it, and that's what I don't comprehend.
There's nothing wrong with warning people about danger, actually it would be cruel not too. But I find it interesting that Jesus didn't say "you too will all be tormented in hell for eternity"
I don't know. I'll leave the door open as a possibility since the Bible could support either annihilation or eternal torment. I just hope it's annihilation. The only way I can see eternal conscious torment being just is if we deserved it, and that's what I don't comprehend.
Just a brief reply to the latter part of your post, why we don't comprehend the justness of eternal torment is because we don't comprehend Who it is that we have offended by our sin. We haven't merely offended human beings, David says in the psalms:
Psalm 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
When we start to realise Who the God is that we have offended by our sin, we can only beat ourselves on the chest and say "God be merciful to me a sinner" -
Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
When we stop judging our sin to our human standards, by which we fool ourselves we are doing pretty well compared to other humans (and we start thanking God we are not like the publican for instance, as the pharisee did)- and start judging ourselves to Gods Holy standard given to us by His Law, we know God is justified when He speaks and clear when He judges us to eternal hell. Our conscience even agrees with it, con = with and science = knowledge, when we sin we do so 'with knowledge'. When we see the LORD as He truly is, we can only agree with His eternal judgment.
I have heard the comparison made of crimes committed even between human beings, there's a huge difference in the consequences of punishment if you have committed a crime against the president of the USA or against a random person. Imagine that case but then a million-fold worse because God is not as a human being, He is the God that created us, gave us life, a family, food, shelter etc. and what do we pay Him in return? Our vile scoffing of Him, our denial of His existence etc. When we see our sin in the light of the Holy God we offend with it every day, we can be impressed we have not already been condemned to hell, but God is rich in mercy to extend us life temporally and even willing to grant us everlasting life if we repent from our sin like the publican, and believe in His Son.
My apologies the reply didn't turn out so brief as I intended it
hmm, also, a man who has just found out his 15 year old daughter is pregnant night be said to be "in hell" in a spiritual sense, and this is likely a valid representation of those who did not exhibit the pursuit of knowledge in their lifetimes. You do not know whether you may be considered "Accepted," yet able to chat with...Hitler, or whomever, in the afterlife; though why he would no longer be able to garner any further knowledge i am not aware. But Samuel's words to Saul, "and you and your sons will be here with me" certainly suggest something similar imo; as Saul might be said to = "rejected," while Samuel, "accepted."
There's nothing wrong with warning people about danger, actually it would be cruel not too. But I find it interesting that Jesus didn't say "you too will all be tormented in hell for eternity"
I don't know. I'll leave the door open as a possibility since the Bible could support either annihilation or eternal torment. I just hope it's annihilation. The only way I can see eternal conscious torment being just is if we deserved it, and that's what I don't comprehend.
Can you accept the premise that eternal tormentists put forth that God is love, but God is also just and His justice has to either negate His love or win out over it because His hatred of sin doesn't permit Him to be in the presence of sin and therefore sinners forever must be banished to fiery hell for not accepting forgiveness of those sins through belief in His Son, Jesus?
Right away I can find several problems with this thesis that Matt Slick and other apologists love so much:
1. God is love but God can also hate. "Jacob I have loved but Esau I have HATED". How can God be love if He can hate? It's like saying "This water is pure when it has contaminants in it." Not possible. An oxymoron.
2. Why can't God be in the presence of sin? He didn't have any trouble being in the presence of satan and carrying on a casual conversation with him when we all know satan is sin personified as Jesus said. Apparently God is not an equal-opportunity "it's-okay-to-be-in-His-presence-with-sin" God.
3. Here's a question I've asked repeatedly that every eternal tormentist is more scared to answer than they are scared of hell itself: why can't God in this huge universe find a planet or zone of darkness or something devoid of fire where He can stick sinners? Why does it specifically have to be hell in fire where sinners are tortured along with the devils?
The question is apparently too logical for fundamentalists to contemplate.
where that argument fails, tho, is that logic cannot be used to find God, it is not logical to follow Christ from the pov of success in the world. Even if there are logical enough replies to all 3 of those.
Just a brief reply to the latter part of your post, why we don't comprehend the justness of eternal torment is because we don't comprehend Who it is that we have offended by our sin. We haven't merely offended human beings, David says in the psalms:
Psalm 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
When we start to realise Who the God is that we have offended by our sin, we can only beat ourselves on the chest and say "God be merciful to me a sinner" -
Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
When we stop judging our sin to our human standards, by which we fool ourselves we are doing pretty well compared to other humans (and we start thanking God we are not like the publican for instance, as the pharisee did)- and start judging ourselves to Gods Holy standard given to us by His Law, we know God is justified when He speaks and clear when He judges us to eternal hell. Our conscience even agrees with it, con = with and science = knowledge, when we sin we do so 'with knowledge'. When we see the LORD as He truly is, we can only agree with His eternal judgment.
I have heard the comparison made of crimes committed even between human beings, there's a huge difference in the consequences of punishment if you have committed a crime against the president of the USA or against a random person. Imagine that case but then a million-fold worse because God is not as a human being, He is the God that created us, gave us life, a family, food, shelter etc. and what do we pay Him in return? Our vile scoffing of Him, our denial of His existence etc. When we see our sin in the light of the Holy God we offend with it every day, we can be impressed we have not already been condemned to hell, but God is rich in mercy to extend us life temporally and even willing to grant us everlasting life if we repent from our sin like the publican, and believe in His Son.
My apologies the reply didn't turn out so brief as I intended it
God bless you
I respect that belief and can only hope that it makes sense to me someday if it is true.
God is not offended by sin. Not in the slightest. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their sins against them. That is the truth and you can take it to the bank, for every person that's ever lived or will live. He doesn't judge the external appearances. Love has no memory, it keeps no record of wrongs. Therefore, He only sees righteousness in mankind. It's straightforward and logical. Just believe it. In fact, not believing that is fundamentally what sin is - because you are in unbelief as to Who YOU are - your BEING. Sin with respect to actions or doing is at least one level down from Who you are, and is why there is so much confusion and wasted energy and words, yes vanity, as Solomon put it.
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