The Purpose of the Lake of Fire, which is the 2nd Death (preach, believers)

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by Age-enduring

God is not offended by sin. Not in the slightest. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their sins against them for every person that's ever lived or will live. He doesn't judge the external appearances. Love has no memory, it keeps no record of wrongs. Therefore, He only sees righteousness in mankind. It's straightforward and logical. Just believe it. In fact, not believing that is fundamentally what sin is - because you are in unbelief as to Who YOU are - your BEING. Sin with respect to actions or doing is at least one level down from Who you are, and is why there is so much confusion and wasted energy and words, yes vanity, as Solomon put it.

But hold on for a second. Revelation specifically says that God keeps a set of book out of which we will be judged from.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the booksand each person was judged according to what they had done.
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13-15

So your bad deeds are recorded in the books, these deeds determine whether or not you make it into the Book of Life, and if you're not in the Book of Life you're cast into the Lake of Fire. Sounds to me like God definitely does NOT forget sins therefore we cannot say Love doesn't remember sins.

[kjw47]

Originally Posted by pneuma

And do not let the plain reading of what we are commanded to teach actually mean what is says.

That means then, you can share with all which of the worms in existence can live forever in a hot firey place? All already know the answer is 0--Deut 30:19 is reality. life or death--the only two options in reality.

[kjw47]

Originally Posted by pneuma

Problem with that is neither life nor death is eternal.


People die every day, thus life is not eternal


And those that do die are going to be resurrected out of death just to be put back into death.


Oh and according to you death is annihilation, so we have a bunch of people raised from annihilation just to be annihilated again. ya that makes total sense.



But the biggest problem that understanding has is it tells us what we are commanded to teach is a lie.


Jesus Christ is the savior of ALL men, specially of those that believe, this command and teach.


Sorry to say but both eternal torment and annihilation are a different gospel then what we are commanded to teach.


But I know you guys will carry on teaching a different gospel ( even though you have been warned in scripture not to be doing that) anyway, so carry on.

The wages sin pays = death. Once one died their wages have been paid--in the resurrection, ones will be given the opportunity to learn and apply Gods will. thus the reopening of the book of life--not all will make it, once satan is loosed for a little while--some follow him into the lake of fire.( rev 20:11-12) the scroll of life will be reopened) that means resurrected ones get an opportunity)


I attended different trinity religions--not one taught what Jesus taught--The JW teachers are the only ones I ever found who do.
Not all who believe will enter Gods kingdom( be saved) it was a partial truth( Matt 7:21) Jesus assures of that.
Those that know what Jesus taught and applied those teachings do well. That is FEW.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

But hold on for a second. Revelation specifically says that God keeps a set of book out of which we will be judged from.

So your bad deeds are recorded in the books, these deeds determine whether or not you make it into the Book of Life, and if you're not in the Book of Life you're cast into the Lake of Fire. Sounds to me like God definitely does NOT forget sins therefore we cannot say Love doesn't remember sins.

hmm, i would say this is abusing The Revelation for eschatological purposes, but regardless, surely you are aware of the fundie argument against that pov--that being that the saved are not judged. I forget what the support for that is.

[cuja1]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

Can you accept the premise that eternal tormentists put forth that God is love, but God is also just and His justice has to either negate His love or win out over it because His hatred of sin doesn't permit Him to be in the presence of sin and therefore sinners forever must be banished to fiery hell for not accepting forgiveness of those sins through belief in His Son, Jesus?

Right away I can find several problems with this thesis that Matt Slick and other apologists love so much:

1. God is love but God can also hate. "Jacob I have loved but Esau I have HATED". How can God be love if He can hate? It's like saying "This water is pure when it has contaminants in it." Not possible. An oxymoron.

2. Why can't God be in the presence of sin? He didn't have any trouble being in the presence of satan and carrying on a casual conversation with him when we all know satan is sin personified as Jesus said. Apparently God is not an equal-opportunity "it's-okay-to-be-in-His-presence-with-sin" God.

3. Here's a question I've asked repeatedly that every eternal tormentist is more scared to answer than they are scared of hell itself: why can't God in this huge universe find a planet or zone of darkness or something devoid of fire where He can stick sinners? Why does it specifically have to be hell in fire where sinners are tortured along with the devils?

The question is apparently too logical for fundamentalists to contemplate.

I can't come to grips with the idea that a loving God would torture someone for eternity. Even Hitler, I would think, would have to have some end to the punishment.


It makes sense to me that if someone murdered someone's family member and continued to be the type of person that would want to murder other people, God would not want that type of person in heaven, no matter how loving He is. I could see a perfect God not wanting someone in heaven with Him if that person was always thinking about ways to cause trouble as well and never wanted to change that. But eternal torture or even eternal suffering seems too much for me to grasp.


I think there can be a lot of freedom to interpret scriptures though. The Bible has shown itself to be vague and metaphorical on many occasions so attaching a definite meaning to a verse can't always be done IMO.


I have heard that Hate is not the opposite of love, indifference is. If you hate a person it means you still care about them on some level. Maybe that verse just means that God was extremely disappointed in Esau. I don't know.


Maybe God can be in the presence of sin, but He won't tolerate it forever.


I believe in God but I have to use a very liberal interpretation for it to mean something that I find acceptable. I don't put a whole lot of emphasis on what is in the OT or Revelation. I wonder in part if much of the OT was more of a parable or a myth for the Jewish people. Even C.S. Lewis alluded to this. I am careful at the same time to keep the option open that it is all 100% true word for word.


I realized that even my church takes a liberal interpretation of scripture. Once the preacher said that the idea that bad things happen because God is punishing someone is an archaic idea that needs to be done away with. But isn't that what the OT is all about? God brought forth all sorts of disasters on people for disobeying Him. So how can a Bible believing church say that bad things don't happen as punishment from God? That's why I think that the Bible can be interpreted differently even among Bible believing churches.

[Chanokh]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

hmm, i would say this is abusing The Revelation for eschatological purposes, but regardless, surely you are aware of the fundie argument against that pov--that being that the saved are not judged. I forget what the support for that is.

It is called the Lambs Book of Life, Jesus Christ had power to open its seals in Revelation. And those that believe in Him are forgiven and cleansed from their sins because of the Sacrifice that He brought on their behalf.

Oh what a vivid picture is painted here, breathtaking:

Revelation 5:2-10 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

So the last verse really explains that He has redeemed a people from every tongue and tribe and nation on this earth to reign on the earth. Not just in Revelation is this made clear, even during His walk here on earth He told His disciples not to rejoice because they had power over demons, but rather to rejoice over the fact their names were written in heaven:

Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

[Chanokh]

Originally Posted by cuja1

I can't come to grips with the idea that a loving God would torture someone for eternity. Even Hitler, I would think, would have to have some end to the punishment.

I believe in God but I have to use a very liberal interpretation for it to mean something that I find acceptable.

So God has to climb up to what you think is acceptable according to the stretch of your liberal interpretations? I can tell you that it doesn't matter what you or I think is acceptable. Every human has another standard for what they think is acceptable, do you honestly think that changes or defines reality?

I think you would do well to read the Bible by yourself and in prayer to ask God to reveal His truth to you.
Then you can be rooted in eternal and unchanging truth which will protect you from being tossed to and fro on the waves of the opinions of mere mortals. It doesn't matter whether it be my opinion, your own opinion or others on this forum, your preacher or the pope himself - God alone defines truth and Gods opinion alone is important and what matters.

[cuja1]

Originally Posted by Chanokh

So God has to climb up to what you think is acceptable according to the stretch of your liberal interpretations? I can tell you that it doesn't matter what you or I think is acceptable. Every human has another standard for what they think is acceptable, do you honestly think that changes or defines reality?

I think you would do well to read the Bible by yourself and in prayer to ask God to reveal His truth to you.
Then you can be rooted in eternal and unchanging truth which will protect you from being tossed to and fro on the waves of the opinions of mere mortals. It doesn't matter whether it be my opinion, your own opinion or others on this forum, your preacher or the pope himself - God alone defines truth and Gods opinion alone is important and what matters.

I don't ask God to make reality fit my interpretation. But it would be nice to understand it if reality is eternal torment for all those God deems fit. If it makes sense to you then that's fine, but it doesn't to me. I'm just being honest that I find the idea of eternal torment appalling. I wonder how many people that say it is justified actually think so or are too afraid to say that they don't.


I know one thing, basing my life on a fear of burning in hell for eternity has never brought me anything good, and being able to love a God who would do that is impossible for me unless I can understand the justification for it.

[bbyrd009]

hmm, i wonder if the justification for it is not going to misrepresent The Revelation, which is not meant for eschatological musings, but revealing Christ in the now. I don't find this model of eternal punishment now, even in the NT.

[cuja1]

Originally Posted by Chanokh

So God has to climb up to what you think is acceptable according to the stretch of your liberal interpretations? I can tell you that it doesn't matter what you or I think is acceptable. Every human has another standard for what they think is acceptable, do you honestly think that changes or defines reality?

I think you would do well to read the Bible by yourself and in prayer to ask God to reveal His truth to you.
Then you can be rooted in eternal and unchanging truth which will protect you from being tossed to and fro on the waves of the opinions of mere mortals. It doesn't matter whether it be my opinion, your own opinion or others on this forum, your preacher or the pope himself - God alone defines truth and Gods opinion alone is important and what matters.

Here's a question for you. Do you believe to not go to hell, you have to follow Jesus with all your heart soul mind and strength? That Jesus won't except anything less than all of you?

How can you give that kind of devotion to someone you can't even see, feel, hear, touch, or smell?
I have a hard enough time doing what my wife wants let alone a being that I can't even sit and converse with. I know we can pray but we don't even get an audible voice. How can you give that kind of devotion? And then if you don't you spend eternity burning alive.