Free will and what it implies for in Christianity (pray, eternity, grace)
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Don't mind the rest of us for avoiding churches when ethics are not longer taught and no one opens a bible. Since I'm not sure if I'm getting the loving/accepting God or vengeful nutty God, is easier to be atheist here. Some of the churches here could be considered a cult....
Jesus-lovers just know not to go near these as the forgiveness for loss of employment, financial ruin, homelessness or harm by medical care is too harsh. Have to avoid some people who don't understand how evil they can really be to a new person....The pacifist can sometimes be ignored. Is not that easy to move sometimes with all the nuts confused on what is 'normal' and not. Discrimination in some places looks almost like 1960s Civil Rights Struggle and horrible when no one questions it because the churches are pushing hatred.
Really can question if we really have right to 'freedom of location' when some places are only tolerating tourists and new resident hopefuls are sometimes ruined to use.
Conclusion
The promoters of hidden-message claims say, “How could such amazing coincidences be the product of random chance?” I think the real question should be, “How could such coincidences not be the inevitable product of a huge sequence of trials on a large, essentially random database?”
Once I learned how to navigate in puzzle-space, finding “incredible” predictions became a routine affair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1
Just the mockers and scorners of the word, every truth has it's detractors. Regardless of what they may say, they can't explain away the statistical probability of what the Jewish researchers found. Peace
Actually, the guy who wrote the article did a pretty good job of explaining it away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1
So which of your 5 posts to me about it did you accept it in?
No, I don't but it's my opinion since what I posted got derailed from the 2 points I was making with it (not at all surprisingly). Peace
Oh, I don't know. Somewhere in there I realized that while you embrace at least some kabbalist ideas, you don't identify as one. I get that. I still embrace some Christian ideas but I certainly don't identify as one any longer. But, come on, Rbbi. There are definite similarities between things you've said and what the kabbalist's teach. Combine that with your general reticence to be forthcoming about your beliefs when I ask you about them, I'm pretty much always in guessing mode with you. Anyway...
Your point was that the Bible Code upholds your idea that free will doesn't exist, and if I believed in Bible Code that would be persuasive to me. But since I don't, it's not.
Your point was that the Bible Code upholds your idea that free will doesn't exist, and if I believed in Bible Code that would be persuasive to me. But since I don't, it's not.
think of free will like writing on graph paper. You can go anywhere you want but you have to stay on the grid. There are physical limitations with having a brain state. or existing at a level we are existing.
think of free will like writing on graph paper. You can go anywhere you want but you have to stay on the grid. There are physical limitations with having a brain state. or existing at a level we are existing.
I agree. While we do have choices, they are limited. In that respect our will is not "free", as in without restraint.
People on this forum talk a great deal about loving God. Can one truly believe and love God - unless one also has the free will to not believe and love God? The same is true of grace, which can only truly exist if justice also exists. If there is no free will choice to believe and love God, then love and grace don't truly exist.
Scripture also affirms that past, present and future are Earthly, not heavenly measurements. Of course God knows the choices people will make in their lives, but if he intervened to ensure people only made pre-determined choices, the purpose of this lifetime would cease to exist. Instead, God created people in His own image - able to make free will choices and truly enter into an eternal love-based relationship with Him .... or not.
So which of your 5 posts to me about it did you accept it in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Oh, I don't know. Somewhere in there I realized that while you embrace at least some kabbalist ideas, you don't identify as one. ....
The post where you said it was one that Rbbi1 quoted, so she didn't miss it, she just has a selective memory:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
The site you originally quoted from offers a course on kabbalah 101, so I'm assuming the ideas presented on that site are rooted in kabbalist thought. You quote that site to bolster your position, but you don't embrace kabbalist ideas. Okay.
You even noted the fact in a later post to me:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
So, an off-shoot of kabbalah but significantly different so that it can no longer be called kabbalah?
People on this forum talk a great deal about loving God. Can one truly believe and love God - unless one also has the free will to not believe and love God? The same is true of grace, which can only truly exist if justice also exists. If there is no free will choice to believe and love God, then love and grace don't truly exist.
Scripture also affirms that past, present and future are Earthly, not heavenly measurements. Of course God knows the choices people will make in their lives, but if he intervened to ensure people only made pre-determined choices, the purpose of this lifetime would cease to exist. Instead, God created people in His own image - able to make free will choices and truly enter into an eternal love-based relationship with Him .... or not.
While I'm not convinced yet that humans have free will, I do believe that we are conscious of our surroundings (which is one thing that separates us from robots). Why would you need free will to love God? If God shows you why you should love Him then you are capable of loving Him even without free will.
One website says that we have free will, but we choose what we desire. We are unable to choose something that we desire less than something else, and humans are incapable of making themselves desire something. We either desire it or we don't. We can't wake up one day and say, "I'm going to make myself desire to learn Calculus." We can make ourselves learn Calculus, but we can't make ourselves WANT to learn Calculus. The Bible also makes it pretty clear that faith is a gift.
If humans have free will to follow Jesus with every ounce of their being or face eternal torment in hell, I see the following to be the implications:
People that do not choose to follow Jesus with every ounce of their being are inherently more evil than those who do choose to follow Jesus with every ounce of their being.
Does the Bible teach that some people are inherently more evil or that everyone is equally evil?
Other thoughts?
Just read the Bible. Why ask questions of others when you can read the Book for yourself? You'll get 100 conflicting answers.
BUT: If you get the correct answer, here's what it looks like:
All degrees of imperfection are still... imperfection.
There are no varying degrees of perfection available in the quest for eternal life. Only perfection works.
The Bible teaches that all humans have fallen short of perfection.
Humans can't be perfect in and of themselves.
God understands humans are not and cannot attain perfection. Thus none could avoid death on their own.
God provided the path to perfection for humans to attain eternal life BEFORE HUMANS WERE EVEN CREATED. BEFORE THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED. Only one path to perfection is needed... or else it isn't the path to perfection.
Humans may choose the path they will take. God's path or their own. For those who choose their own path, or those who never heard, will be judged according to their own deeds compared to the measure they applied to others.
The question of whether all unregenerate humans will face eternal torment in the afterlife is debatable. It may not be the case. They might face only annihilation.
Last edited by Led Zeppelin; 10-04-2016 at 01:27 PM..
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