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If that is the case, then your faith has healed you - not theirs. Like I said, their methods are fraudulent and deceptive.
But I suppose you could always claim - Ye, of little faith.
I never said the MAN had a thing to do with it. He DOES, however, have a gift of healing. I know a lot of people who do. The LORD VIA THE HOLY GHOST is ultimately the healer, and He can use someone or no one at all, it's His option to do as HE sees fit. Trying to limit Him in ANY way, only grieves the Spirit and ultimately costs you. Peace
I never said the MAN had a thing to do with it. He DOES, however, have a gift of healing. I know a lot of people who do. The LORD VIA THE HOLY GHOST is ultimately the healer, and He can use someone or no one at all, it's His option to do as HE sees fit. Trying to limit Him in ANY way, only grieves the Spirit and ultimately costs you. Peace
Unfortunately, discernment is an area where most, albeit not all, stumble.
The Pentecostal experience of 'speaking in tongues' is not unique. The ecstatic utterances of modern day tongue-speakers are regularly manifested among voodoo devotees. And, apparently, tongue-speaking has also been reported by those under the influence of LSD, 'magic' mushrooms, etc.
Hmmm..I have spoken in tongue 2 times...
The first time was when I combined 3.5 grams of mushrooms with approx. 300mcg's of LSD. It was in a dorm room over thanksgiving break so no one was around. I remember I started to say the word "kiwi"...then i said "kiwiwi" and then just started flowing into crazy words that i was making up and letting them instantly flow out of my mouth. I'm glad no one was around to hear me from the outside ...hahaha
Second time was on salvia...I thought I was writing on a chalkboard (it was actually just my bed) and somehow was like sucked into this gravitational field coming out of the chalk (my blanket that somehow ended up in my hand) I was trying to resist it and was trying to talk but it was just jumbled vowels and noises. This interested me and I tried to actually focus on talking by my mouth was just making crazy noises that I wasn't hallucinating, I was actually making the noise.
So-called 'tongue speaking' proves nothing. It's merely another part of other such deceptions as practiced by charismatic churches. That said, maybe not all Pentecostals are just making it up. While I KNOW that many are 'shamming it' (they've later admitted this) I also believe that others SINCERELY BELIEVE that their claimed 'angelic speech' is the real thing. The state of euphoria is most drug-like. However, it's undoubtedly a surety that they were FIRST introduced and COAXED into speaking 'tongues' BY the teaching and the encouragement of the Pentecostal Church. Not one of them would have randomly come across Paul's hyperbolic statement in 1 Corinthians about 'the tongues of angels' and then suddenly received 'such a gift' from the Holy Spirit! No, they would likely have first had it drummed into them that 'speaking in tongues' is EVIDENCE of an infilling of the Holy Spirit WITHOUT WHICH salvation cannot be attained! For the rest of us who have been spared such charismatic nonsense, we must remember that the Holy Spirit in the Book of Acts caused men to speak in 'languages of the world' and NOT gibberish.*
1 Corinthians 14:6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching?
7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played?
8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle?
9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance.
11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.
12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.
*Unless someone can actually verify that a language IS ACTUALLY A KNOWN LANGUAGE OF THE WORLD it must therefore be assigned to the category of unintelligible or meaningless speech; nonsense. Taking someone's word that 'babble' is actually "the language of angels" assigns one to the category of 'seriously lacking in discernment'.
The Pentecostal experience of 'speaking in tongues' is not unique. The ecstatic utterances of modern day tongue-speakers are regularly manifested among voodoo devotees. And, apparently, tongue-speaking has also been reported by those under the influence of LSD, 'magic' mushrooms, etc.
Hmmm..I have spoken in tongue 2 times...
The first time was when I combined 3.5 grams of mushrooms with approx. 300mcg's of LSD. It was in a dorm room over thanksgiving break so no one was around. I remember I started to say the word "kiwi"...then i said "kiwiwi" and then just started flowing into crazy words that i was making up and letting them instantly flow out of my mouth. I'm glad no one was around to hear me from the outside ...hahaha
Second time was on salvia...I thought I was writing on a chalkboard (it was actually just my bed) and somehow was like sucked into this gravitational field coming out of the chalk (my blanket that somehow ended up in my hand) I was trying to resist it and was trying to talk but it was just jumbled vowels and noises. This interested me and I tried to actually focus on talking by my mouth was just making crazy noises that I wasn't hallucinating, I was actually making the noise.
So-called 'tongue speaking' proves nothing. It's merely another part of other such deceptions as practiced by charismatic churches. That said, maybe not all Pentecostals are just making it up. While I KNOW that many are 'shamming it' (they've later admitted this) I also believe that others SINCERELY BELIEVE that their claimed 'angelic speech' is the real thing. The state of euphoria is most drug-like. However, it's undoubtedly a surety that they were FIRST introduced and COAXED into speaking 'tongues' BY the teaching and the encouragement of the Pentecostal Church. Not one of them would have randomly come across Paul's hyperbolic statement in 1 Corinthians about 'the tongues of angels' and then suddenly received 'such a gift' from the Holy Spirit! No, they would likely have first had it drummed into them that 'speaking in tongues' is EVIDENCE of an infilling of the Holy Spirit WITHOUT WHICH salvation cannot be attained! For the rest of us who have been spared such charismatic nonsense, we must remember that the Holy Spirit in the Book of Acts caused men to speak in 'languages of the world' and NOT gibberish.*
1 Corinthians 14:6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching?
7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played?
8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle?
9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance.
11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.
12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.
*Unless someone can actually verify that a language IS ACTUALLY A KNOWN LANGUAGE OF THE WORLD it must therefore be assigned to the category of unintelligible or meaningless speech; nonsense. Taking someone's word that 'babble' is actually "the language of angels" assigns one to the category of 'seriously lacking in discernment'.
And THERE is the self admitted problem. YOU were speaking in tongues. It's the HOLY GHOST that speaks THROUGH THE BELIEVER = PROOF HE IS RISEN FROM THE DEAD, JUST LIKE PETER SAID ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST, ie. G-d has made Him both LORD AND Christ.
That it does not commit to use the language part of the brain, was proven by scientists in an experiment. I could have saved them the money. I can read a book and speak in tongues at the same time, losing nothing of the comprehension of the book, as it isn't coming through MY MIND, but the mind of the Spirit of G-d IN ME. Peace
And THERE is the self admitted problem. YOU were speaking in tongues. It's the HOLY GHOST that speaks THROUGH THE BELIEVER = PROOF HE IS RISEN FROM THE DEAD, JUST LIKE PETER SAID ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST, ie. G-d has made Him both LORD AND Christ.
That it does not commit to use the language part of the brain, was proven by scientists in an experiment. I could have saved them the money. I can read a book and speak in tongues at the same time, losing nothing of the comprehension of the book, as it isn't coming through MY MIND, but the mind of the Spirit of G-d IN ME. Peace
According to Dr. William T. Samarin, professor of anthropology and linguistics at the University of Toronto, glossolalia consists of strings of meaningless syllables made up of sounds taken from those familiar to the speaker and put together more or less haphazardly .... Glossolalia is language-like because the speaker unconsciously wants it to be language-like. Yet in spite of superficial similarities, glossolalia fundamentally is not language (Nickell, 108).
When spoken by schizophrenics, glossolalia is recognized as gibberish. In charismatic Christian communities glossolalia is sacred and referred to as "speaking in tongues" or having "the gift of tongues." In Acts of the Apostles, tongues of fire are described as alighting on the Apostles, filling them with the Holy Spirit. Allegedly, this allowed the Apostles to speak in their own language but be understood by foreigners from several nations.
Glossolalics behave in various ways, depending on the social expectations of their community. Some go into convulsions or lose consciousness; others are less dramatic. Some seem to go into a trance; some claim to have amnesia of their speaking in tongues. All believe they are possessed by the Holy Spirit and the gibberish they utter is meaningful. However, only one with faith and the gift of interpretation is capable of figuring out the meaning of the meaningless utterances. Of course, this belief gives the interpreter unchecked leeway in "translating" the meaningless utterances. Nicholas Spanos notes: "Typically, the interpretation supports the central tenets of the religious community" (Spanos, 147).
Uttering gibberish that is interpreted as profound mystical insight by holy men is an ancient practice. In Greece, even the priest of Apollo, god of light, engaged in prophetic babbling. The ancient Israelites did it. So did the Jansenists, the Quakers, the Methodists, and the Shakers.
There is evidence that while speaking in tongues people experience a sharp decrease in frontal lobe function, the area of the brain that enables reason and self-control. There is also increased activity in the parietal region of the brain, which takes sensory information and tries to create a sense of self relating to the world. Psychiatrist Andrew Newberg, Director of the Center for Spirituality and the Mind at the University of Pennsylvania, studied five African-American Pentecostal women who frequently speak in tongues. As a control activity, Newberg had the women sing gospel tunes while moving their arms and swaying.*
Newberg gave the Pentecostals an intravenous injection of a radioactive tracer that allowed him to measure blood flow and "see" which brain areas were most active during the behaviors. Newberg and his associates published their findings in the November 2006 issue of Psychiatry Research: Neuroimaging. During glossolalia, the part of the brain than normally makes a person feel in control was essentially shut down. The findings make sense, says Newberg, because speaking in tongues involves giving up control and feeling a "very intense experience of how the self relates to [a] god."*
Newberg noted that the glossolalia responses were the opposite of those of people in a meditative state. When people meditate their frontal lobe activity increases, while their parietal activity decreases. In meditation, one loses the sense of self while controlling one's focus and concentration.
The Pentecostal movement seems to have originated in the 19th century,* although the Biblical basis for the practice is traced to the Acts of the Apostles. The practice of Pentecostals differs, however, from what is described in Acts. Pentecostals utter gibberish and claim that they are speaking in a language understood by some god but not by other Pentecostals, but in Acts we are told that those present not only spoke "with other tongues" but "every man heard them speak in his own language."
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galileans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of [some] god. [Acts II; 1-11]
This story is supposed to support the notion that such an event really did occur and it was prophesied by Joel that this kind of thing would happen in the last days. There is nothing in Joel, however, that prophesied that, when the last days didn't come as predicted, plan B would be to wait 1900 years and have a revival and claim that when you speak gibberish it is a sign that some god loves you.
As for me personally, I don't want any entity - be it 'holy' or otherwise - 'taking me over'. If I can't speak - or pray - for myself then I keep quiet.
Last edited by RomulusXXV; 05-16-2017 at 06:19 AM..
According to Dr. William T. Samarin, professor of anthropology and linguistics at the University of Toronto, glossolalia consists of strings of meaningless syllables made up of sounds taken from those familiar to the speaker and put together more or less haphazardly .... Glossolalia is language-like because the speaker unconsciously wants it to be language-like. Yet in spite of superficial similarities, glossolalia fundamentally is not language (Nickell, 108).
When spoken by schizophrenics, glossolalia is recognized as gibberish. In charismatic Christian communities glossolalia is sacred and referred to as "speaking in tongues" or having "the gift of tongues." In Acts of the Apostles, tongues of fire are described as alighting on the Apostles, filling them with the Holy Spirit. Allegedly, this allowed the Apostles to speak in their own language but be understood by foreigners from several nations.
Glossolalics behave in various ways, depending on the social expectations of their community. Some go into convulsions or lose consciousness; others are less dramatic. Some seem to go into a trance; some claim to have amnesia of their speaking in tongues. All believe they are possessed by the Holy Spirit and the gibberish they utter is meaningful. However, only one with faith and the gift of interpretation is capable of figuring out the meaning of the meaningless utterances. Of course, this belief gives the interpreter unchecked leeway in "translating" the meaningless utterances. Nicholas Spanos notes: "Typically, the interpretation supports the central tenets of the religious community" (Spanos, 147).
Uttering gibberish that is interpreted as profound mystical insight by holy men is an ancient practice. In Greece, even the priest of Apollo, god of light, engaged in prophetic babbling. The ancient Israelites did it. So did the Jansenists, the Quakers, the Methodists, and the Shakers.
There is evidence that while speaking in tongues people experience a sharp decrease in frontal lobe function, the area of the brain that enables reason and self-control. There is also increased activity in the parietal region of the brain, which takes sensory information and tries to create a sense of self relating to the world. Psychiatrist Andrew Newberg, Director of the Center for Spirituality and the Mind at the University of Pennsylvania, studied five African-American Pentecostal women who frequently speak in tongues. As a control activity, Newberg had the women sing gospel tunes while moving their arms and swaying.*
Newberg gave the Pentecostals an intravenous injection of a radioactive tracer that allowed him to measure blood flow and "see" which brain areas were most active during the behaviors. Newberg and his associates published their findings in the November 2006 issue of Psychiatry Research: Neuroimaging. During glossolalia, the part of the brain than normally makes a person feel in control was essentially shut down. The findings make sense, says Newberg, because speaking in tongues involves giving up control and feeling a "very intense experience of how the self relates to [a] god."*
Newberg noted that the glossolalia responses were the opposite of those of people in a meditative state. When people meditate their frontal lobe activity increases, while their parietal activity decreases. In meditation, one loses the sense of self while controlling one's focus and concentration.
The Pentecostal movement seems to have originated in the 19th century,* although the Biblical basis for the practice is traced to the Acts of the Apostles. The practice of Pentecostals differs, however, from what is described in Acts. Pentecostals utter gibberish and claim that they are speaking in a language understood by some god but not by other Pentecostals, but in Acts we are told that those present not only spoke "with other tongues" but "every man heard them speak in his own language."
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galileans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of [some] god. [Acts II; 1-11]
This story is supposed to support the notion that such an event really did occur and it was prophesied by Joel that this kind of thing would happen in the last days. There is nothing in Joel, however, that prophesied that, when the last days didn't come as predicted, plan B would be to wait 1900 years and have a revival and claim that when you speak gibberish it is a sign that some god loves you.
As for me personally, I don't want any entity - be it 'holy' or otherwise - 'taking me over'. If I can't speak - or pray - for myself then I keep quiet.
Articles by people who have never experienced it, again, count for NOTHING. Emmanuel = G-d is with us. He had/has a plan and it includes Pentecost. People can get over it or under it, but that's the way it is.
And we are right back to the root of the problem, which is you refuse to submit to the Holy Ghost and if you won't submit, then you must try to tear down the experience of others to assuage your soul's guilt, just like Job's wife, "Curse G-d and die." No, thanks. Peace
-
Here's an example of a sensible, practical use of tongues.
● Rev 14:6-7 . . I saw another angel flying through the sky, carrying the everlasting gospel to preach to the people who dwell on the earth-- to every nation, tribe, language, and people. Fear God! he shouted. Give glory to Him! For the time has come when He will sit as judge. Worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea, and all the springs of water!
The everlasting gospel is very elementary. Pretty much all it says to everyone who hears it is:
1• There's a supreme being.
2• He deserves respect.
3• There's a frightful reckoning looming on the horizon, and
4• The cosmos-- all of its forms of life, matter, and energy --is the product of intelligent design.
Giving "glory" to God simply indicates giving someone credit where credit is due; and "worship" basically just simply means admiration.
It's quite natural to admire celebrities, pro athletes, and super achievers-- to give them credit where credit is due --but not quite so natural to do the same for their creator.
Anyway, point being: the angel's message will be intelligible to everyone who hears him no matter what language they speak and/or understand. Modern tonguers would do well to use their gift in like manner instead of only blowing bubbles all the time.
Articles by people who have never experienced it, again, count for NOTHING. Emmanuel = G-d is with us. He had/has a plan and it includes Pentecost. People can get over it or under it, but that's the way it is.
Many people who DO claim to have 'experienced it' come out later to confess that it was all a sham. What YOU claim about 'tongue-speaking' is nothing more than your own unverifiable word and you expect everyone else to believe it. And, if they don't believe it then you throw the "that's because you don't have an infilling of the Holy Spirit" at them. Why "I" don't believe any of this is because 1. it's nonsensical to pass off 'babble' as being some form of 'angelic speech', and, 2. this silly Pentecostal practice is not scriptural any more than is voodoo or LSD-induced babble. Paul was simply using HYPERBOLE when he referenced 'the tongues of angels'! That you're using Paul's frustrated attempts to bring a rabble in the church under control simply to glorify yourself is quite telling, Rbbi1. Moreover ...you also ridicule those who DO know the context of Paul's exaggerated speech and call THEM ignorant! I wonder how long will it be before YOU come out and tell us that it was all a sham?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1
And we are right back to the root of the problem, which is you refuse to submit to the Holy Ghost and if you won't submit, then you must try to tear down the experience of others to assuage your soul's guilt, just like Job's wife, "Curse G-d and die." No, thanks. Peace
I'm not 'back' to anything. I remain at the position I started. As you are. So, let me ask you this ...do you believe that 'speaking in tongues' is an indication of one's being 'Spirit-filled' WITHOUT WHICH one is 'lost'? You see, dear reader, people like Jimmy Swaggart and MANY other Pentecostals believe that ONLY 'tongue-speakers' are 'saved' because it's THEY who have received the Holy Spirit. All those who have NOT received the Holy Spirit, i.e. those that don't 'speak in tongues', are destined for (ahem) hell. That is how RIDICULOUS this whole 'tongue-speaking' phenomenon has become . . .!
AND, all of this came about because Paul chose to use an exaggerated term, "the tongues of angels", in his speech to try to calm an unruly congregation in the Church of Corinth! That term is found NOWHERE ELSE in the entire Bible because it's simply HYPERBOLE used ONE TIME in 1 Corinthians!
-
Here's an example of a sensible, practical use of tongues.
● Rev 14:6-7 . . I saw another angel flying through the sky, carrying the everlasting gospel to preach to the people who dwell on the earth-- to every nation, tribe, language, and people. Fear God! he shouted. Give glory to Him! For the time has come when He will sit as judge. Worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea, and all the springs of water!
The everlasting gospel is very elementary. Pretty much all it says to everyone who hears it is:
1• There's a supreme being.
2• He deserves respect.
3• There's a frightful reckoning looming on the horizon, and
4• The cosmos-- all of its forms of life, matter, and energy --is the product of intelligent design.
Giving "glory" to God simply indicates giving someone credit where credit is due; and "worship" basically just simply means admiration.
It's quite natural to admire celebrities, pro athletes, and super achievers-- to give them credit where credit is due --but not quite so natural to do the same for their creator.
Anyway, point being: the angel's message will be intelligible to everyone who hears him no matter what language they speak and/or understand. Modern tonguers would do well to use their gift in like manner instead of only blowing bubbles all the time.
/
I prefer to do what G-d says, the way He says, and if it's considered "non-sensible, or impractical", so be it. He didn't ask for our opinions, only our faith and obedience. Peace
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Re: Rules For Governing The Gift Of Tongues
