Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I don't subscribe to Netflix, so I can't watch the documentary.
However, there is no need to try to reconcile the creation story in Genesis with science, or vice versa. Those who do so are attempting to impose a 20th/21st century scientific worldview/cosmic geography on an ancient time and culture, seeing that scientifically the creation story doesn't hold up, and then criticizing the Bible for not being what it was never intended to be. Genesis was written to Israel which shared much of the same cosmic geography as its ancient near eastern (ANE) neighbors who had their own creation stories. The creation story in Genesis may very well be a polemic in which the point is not so much how God created the heavens and the earth but that it was the God of Israel who created them instead of the gods of their ANE neighbors.
God had things to communicate to Israel and it wasn't necessary to change their existing worldview/cosmic geography in order to get the message across. If the Bible had been written to us today instead of to Israel two and three thousand years ago it would not speak to us in terms of whatever cosmic geography will exist two and three thousand years from now. If it did, we wouldn't understand it. God communicated with the ancient Israelites in terms they could understand. He met them where they were. It wasn't necessary for God to update Israel's knowledge of the cosmos in order to get His message across to them.
It isn't necessary, and it's a mistake to try to impose a modern scientific understanding of the Universe on an ancient text and culture and then condemn it for not measuring up to our modern understanding. What is necessary is to try to understand Genesis in the way it was understood by the ancient Israelites to whom it was written. God didn't intend to give Israel a 21st century knowledge of the Universe. He intended for them to know that He was their God and for them there was no other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Since the original recipients of the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament) was the Hebrews, and since the Hebrew Bible mainly concerns God's dealings with the ancient Hebrews, God condescended and spoke to them at their level of understanding which was an ancient pre-scientific view of the cosmos. The Bible is both a divine and a human writing. While God is the divine author, the human writers wrote within the framework of their own culture and worldview. And God accommodated Himself to their limited understanding of the cosmos.
It wasn't God's objective to educate the Hebrews regarding the true nature of the cosmos. Our own 21st century understanding of the cosmos is incomplete. Two hundred years from now our scientific knowledge will be vastly greater than it is now. And so if God had given the ancient Hebrews an understanding of the cosmos equal to ours today, then someone two hundred years in our future might ask, well why didn't God give the Hebrews a 23rd century understanding of the cosmos. Where does it stop? Instead, the Bible doesn't deal with scientific topics. That wasn't God's purpose. Genesis one and the creation account is theological messaging. The point of the creation account is that it was Yahweh who brought the heavens into being rather than the gods of the other ANE peoples. Not HOW He did it, but THAT He was the one to do it, and WHY He did it.
Again, don't criticize the Bible (the Old Testament is in view here) for not being something it was never intended to be. Just let the Bible be what it is. An ancient collection of writings, divinely inspired, but speaking to the ancient Hebrews in terms of their understanding, their worldview, their cosmic geography. Rather than criticizing ancient writings for not having a 21st century scientific worldview, the serious student of the word of God needs to take it upon himself to understand the time and culture in which the Bible was written.
Anyone who found what I said above to make sense might be interested in listening to these talks by Dr. Michael Heiser on Genesis and creation in the first two videos. I thought I'd also throw in the third video about the chaos monster in Genesis.
I don't subscribe to Netflix, so I can't watch the documentary.
However, there is no need to try to reconcile the creation story in Genesis with science, or vice versa. Those who do so are attempting to impose a 20th/21st century scientific worldview/cosmic geography on an ancient time and culture, seeing that scientifically the creation story doesn't hold up, and then criticizing the Bible for not being what it was never intended to be. Genesis was written to Israel which shared much of the same cosmic geography as its ancient near eastern (ANE) neighbors who had their own creation stories. The creation story in Genesis may very well be a polemic in which the point is not so much how God created the heavens and the earth but that it was the God of Israel who created them instead of the gods of their ANE neighbors.
God had things to communicate to Israel and it wasn't necessary to change their existing worldview/cosmic geography in order to get the message across. If the Bible had been written to us today instead of to Israel two and three thousand years ago it would not speak to us in terms of whatever cosmic geography will exist two and three thousand years from now. If it did, we wouldn't understand it. God communicated with the ancient Israelites in terms they could understand. He met them where they were. It wasn't necessary for God to update Israel's knowledge of the cosmos in order to get His message across to them.
It isn't necessary, and it's a mistake to try to impose a modern scientific understanding of the Universe on an ancient text and culture and then condemn it for not measuring up to our modern understanding. What is necessary is to try to understand Genesis in the way it was understood by the ancient Israelites to whom it was written. God didn't intend to give Israel a 21st century knowledge of the Universe. He intended for them to know that He was their God and for them there was no other.
Ha, when did you start singing this tune? You always, from what I remember, thought Genesis to be literal. You been reading some material influenced by modern scholarship about the ANE and the Bible? Of course it is a polemic - it uses the ANE conception of cosmology and put YHWH front and center. The problem is that this cosmology is all WRONG! Good to see you are coming along nicely! There may be hope for you yet.
06-15-2017, 12:10 AM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Anyone who found what I said above to make sense might be interested in listening to these talks by Dr. Michael Heiser on Genesis and creation in the first two videos. I thought I'd also throw in the third video about the chaos monster in Genesis.
I knew it - you found and were reading Heiser - I posted these videos in here years ago and if I am not mistaken you did not accept them then. It's hard to fight with facts Mike. I have been following him since 2004 before he did his dissertation - and yes I have read the whole thing. The problem is that his case is very forced when in reality it is just easier to accept that none of these gods are real and Israelites borrowed and adapted ANE motifs and texts to fit their ever changing theology - which as Heiser notes, if you have not already, they edited their texts - his prime example it Deut. 28:8-9. Maybe you will also start to realize that Gen.1:1-3 does not teach creatio ex nihilo either. Will see! It was his material and the study of end times that led me away from Christianity to atheism. Let's hope you find the truth as well instead of trying to hold on to fairy tails. Don't get me wrong Heiser is a good guy who is genuine but he is obviously trying to make these problems somehow work.
Now just start to read other scholars in the field and maybe the light will turn on.
06-15-2017, 12:21 AM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
This is perhaps the sanest thing you've ever composed, Mike, without the literalism so many of your posts have contained.
So if both your cyber friends and opponents see it as encouraging, you can be much more certain that it came from God.
I am pretty sure I used Mike Heiser as a reference with Mike555 before, so as not to be accused of using 'pagans' and 'unbelievers' as sources when giving this info. He did not buy it then but now seems to be closer to the truth. I am just wonder how much of Heiser and other scholars in this field he has read because a lot of what Heiser believes is in no way close to Mike555's beliefs that he has been known to post on here. Will see!
Last edited by 2K5Gx2km; 06-15-2017 at 12:34 AM..
06-15-2017, 12:29 AM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
I will say this about Heiser - his take on things is probably the best their is at holding onto any hope of Christianity being viable. But then again he has not so orthodox views about inerrancy and inspiration nor about the earth being 6-10,000 years old and of all the other stuff that Mike555 maybe still believes. Again, interesting! I have wondered how long it would take for mainstream YEC and others to start to see his work - he has brought a lot of this ANE material to an otherwise ignorant (I don't mean that as an insult) mass of people in the Christian community. A lot of this material has only been recently found and studied in the last 50-70 years and was only available in journals. But he has put these ideas into some Christian reference materials and of course the internet helps tremendously.
I will say this about Heiser - his take on things is probably the best their is at holding onto any hope of Christianity being viable. But then again he has not so orthodox views about inerrancy and inspiration nor about the earth being 6-10,000 years old and of all the other stuff that Mike555 maybe still believes. Again, interesting! I have wondered how long it would take for mainstream YEC and others to start to see his work - he has brought a lot of this ANE material to an otherwise ignorant (I don't mean that as an insult) mass of people in the Christian community. A lot of this material has only been recently found and studied in the last 50-70 years and was only available in journals. But he has put these ideas into some Christian reference materials and of course the internet helps tremendously.
I have never been a young earth creationist and am on record as having said so. If you will recall, I used to hold to the GAP or ruin restoration view.
Currently available for streaming on Netflix. Probably available for watching or purchase in other venues.
I have to say I found this quite interesting. Real working scientists interviewed on site by a former computer programmer and man of faith. All those interviewed are people of faith as well. Christians will find this effort to reconcile their faith with science reaffirming.
I'm not sure I buy the case in it's entirety, Overlooked are things like the geology of tectonic plates, and liberties are taken with certain laws of physics, like the speed of light. I mean, God creates laws of physics. only to violate them arbitrarily? The existence of total eclipses of the sun is proof that the earth is the center of God;s creation, if not literally, but in terms of purpose? How do we know there are not total eclipses elsewhere in this universe?
Still, many of the interpretations of the physical world we see today are worth consideration and offers alternatives to the paradigms through which we see the natural world.
Recommended, if only to open minds about things we see around us.
Being that Genesis is God's Word ... and Jesus said "thy word is truth" ... I'd take that over any paradigms that suggest evolution \ old earth.
I liked how a reference was made to the observed nature's mini-experiment of Mount Saint Helens which showed it is possible for nature to dramatically change the landscape, form rocks, create 600 feet of new strata within hours\days (which in the mindset of the evolution \ old earth paradigm theory) such formations should have taken billions of years to produce.
Last edited by twin.spin; 06-15-2017 at 09:32 AM..
I have never been a young earth creationist and am on record as having said so. If you will recall, I used to hold to the GAP or ruin restoration view.
Ah yes, I remember but Heiser does not hold to the GAP idea and has some very good material on it. I have posted a lot on it here.
I am pretty sure I used Mike Heiser as a reference with Mike555 before, so as not to be accused of using 'pagans' and 'unbelievers' as sources when giving this info. He did not buy it then but now seems to be closer to the truth. I am just wonder how much of Heiser and other scholars in this field he has read because a lot of what Heiser believes is in no way close to Mike555's beliefs that he has been known to post on here. Will see!
Thanks for mentioning Mike Heiser. I am familiar with quite a few biblical scholars but haven't heard of him.
I took a look at one of his pages and it appears he is on a crusade to "disprove" Zechariah Stitchin, and that guy never impressed me anyway. What I like about Heiser, based on his web page, is his linguistic expertise and the fact that he isn't some balderdash fundamentalist.
I'm going to have to obtain a couple of his books if any exist that aren't purely contradicting Stitchin. I'm not in need of any of that kind of reinforcement.
Again, thank you.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
