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This idea that we are literally washed pure of sin--having our sins gone---simply by a belief and nothing else is, at least in my view, what leads to some of the awful self-righteous attitudes Christians display. Through Christ we have forgiveness of sins. That forgiveness and grace is a transformation of our minds into a new creation---born of Spirit---one who understands grace and forgiveness and tries to do likewise. Jesus taught consequences for actions. If you walk around thinking that Christ took away your sins, literally, rather than as a model of forgiveness, it is a perfect prologue to believing you are better than others. As if by the Jesus prayer magic formula, you are now clean, and everyone else is dirty. When you sin again and get dirty, say the prayer, and then you are clean, and everyone else is dirty...and repeat...not good. Anyway, that's how I see redemption, but it is an evolving topic I have been thinking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmom2
Absolutely, you have to have faith. And you can't earn forgiveness, but can only say "yes" to the free gift. But I still don't believe the sins are "taken away" but instead forgiven. There are too many times where Jesus talks about consequences for actions. You can't escape the consequences. If you murder someone, you can be forgiven and right with God through faith in the Savior, but there will be consequences that arise from that (reap what you sow etc.) I think it creates a different, more humble, mindset when you believe you are forgiven vs. when you believe you are "washed clean." But, I don't believe that there is anything that can be done to earn the free gift of grace. Likewise you can't earn the forgiveness of another brother or sister, it is just a gift even given to someone who hasn't asked for it.
The concept of our sins being taken away is quite Biblical.
1 John 3:5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Jesus took away our sins as the Lamb of God whose redemptive work on the cross atoned for our sins. He took away our sins by bearing our sins in his own body on the cross and taking the penalty for them in our place.
1 Peter 2:4 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
Our sins were judicially imputed to him as he hung on the cross. Having been imputed to him, our sins were judicially transferred from us. As a result of our sins having been judged at the cross, and the penalty for those sins paid for by Jesus, we as believers ought not continue to live in sin. But when we do sin we are to simply name the sin to God as per the principle of 1 John 1:9 to get back into fellowship with God. That's grace.
AND AS FAR AS I KNOW ............ A SERVANT ISN'T A PROPERTY OWNER TO MAKE THAT TRANSACTION.
A SERVANT IS ALREADY OWNED.
YOU HAVE TO HAVE PROPERTY RIGHTS ( as the son of God was the son opf king david and a Atalas and thus had world wide property right) when he went into the grave...... TO HAVE A REDEEMER..AND SERVANTS DON'T HAVE PROPERTY RIGHTS!
HE saves "THE servants" in Paradise . They didn't get freedom from the condemnation of "Death" and hell.....until He died and more importantly rose up with them in tow......
BUT ISA 53 PROVES SOMEONE ELSE IS ALSO CO HEIRS AND CO-EQUALS IN THE DIVISION OF PROPERTY/ SPOILS. so there is more to the story than us being only servants..and more being offered than just servanthood..
The Jews were always called "his servants" and rarely one is called his son .. king david.... and and ???? Moses ?
they had the same promises to become redeemed one promised day..
when the Promised one / Messiah came.
They were not fully "saved "then.. they still went into Death and then into "Paradise" and held in death/ condemned for the promised day... when they would be uncondemned ..
He would one day redeem them from death. right?
read Isa 53 again.
The concept of our sins being taken away is quite Biblical.
1 John 3:5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Jesus took away our sins as the Lamb of God whose redemptive work on the cross atoned for our sins. He took away our sins by bearing our sins in his own body on the cross and taking the penalty for them in our place.
1 Peter 2:4 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
Our sins were judicially imputed to him as he hung on the cross. Having been imputed to him, our sins were judicially transferred from us. As a result of our sins having been judged at the cross, and the penalty for those sins paid for by Jesus, we as believers ought not continue to live in sin. But when we do sin we are to simply name the sin to God as per the principle of 1 John 1:9 to get back into fellowship with God. That's grace.
Yes in the son there is forgiveness but that is if you become the son, the servant of God.
This idea that we are literally washed pure of sin--having our sins gone---simply by a belief and nothing else is, at least in my view, what leads to some of the awful self-righteous attitudes Christians display. Through Christ we have forgiveness of sins. That forgiveness and grace is a transformation of our minds into a new creation---born of Spirit---one who understands grace and forgiveness and tries to do likewise. Jesus taught consequences for actions. If you walk around thinking that Christ took away your sins, literally, rather than as a model of forgiveness, it is a perfect prologue to believing you are better than others. As if by the Jesus prayer magic formula, you are now clean, and everyone else is dirty. When you sin again and get dirty, say the prayer, and then you are clean, and everyone else is dirty...and repeat...not good. Anyway, that's how I see redemption, but it is an evolving topic I have been thinking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmom2
Absolutely, you have to have faith. And you can't earn forgiveness, but can only say "yes" to the free gift. But I still don't believe the sins are "taken away" but instead forgiven. There are too many times where Jesus talks about consequences for actions. You can't escape the consequences. If you murder someone, you can be forgiven and right with God through faith in the Savior, but there will be consequences that arise from that (reap what you sow etc.) I think it creates a different, more humble, mindset when you believe you are forgiven vs. when you believe you are "washed clean." But, I don't believe that there is anything that can be done to earn the free gift of grace. Likewise you can't earn the forgiveness of another brother or sister, it is just a gift even given to someone who hasn't asked for it.
There is no love without forgiveness, and no forgiveness without love; for what power has love, but that of forgiveness. One cannot impute sin, where there is no sin - but one can forgive the sins of others through that of love. And that is the beauty of Grace in action.
There is no love without forgiveness, and no forgiveness without love; for what power has love, but that of forgiveness. One cannot impute sin, where there is no sin - but one can forgive the sins of others through that of love. And that is the beauty of Grace in action.
There is no love without forgiveness, and no forgiveness without love; for what power has love, but that of forgiveness. One cannot impute sin, where there is no sin - but one can forgive the sins of others through that of love. And that is the beauty of Grace in action.
Forgiving others does not take away there sin.
You misunderstand forgiveness and the power of God.
"When a wicked man turns from wickedness and does what is right and just he shall live, says the Lord."
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