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Because this is talking about the final judgement, not the rapture.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 (Rapture or being "caught up")
"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."
This is what happens after the 1000 years:
Revelation 20:11-12 (Final judgement)
"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened."
This is where arguments become so heated because there are so many interpretations of what is going to happen when. Some believe that Christians will be raptured out before the tribulation, some believe they will have to live through it, some believe the dead are not in heaven or hades but there is some sort of purgatory where your soul is "asleep" or just kind of hanging out.....there will always be debates about these things.
That's why I stress the main factor, the only thing that really matters: Accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour and live a Godly life. That is made crystal clear all throughout the Bible, while other things are not so clear. All else will be automatically known as soon as we die. It's God's plan, we can only surmise and try to prepare others that the end is coming, whether it's the end of the world or the end of your life.
You've been taught the bible college man's version of scripture. There will be those that curse God and die, i believe many of these will be those that think the rapture is for anyone that thinks they are saved. When clearly the Caught up (quickened) are those that have overcome sin, and actually live the teachings of Jesus. Not just say they believe.
Because this is talking about the final judgement, not the rapture.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 (Rapture or being "caught up")
"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."
This is what happens after the 1000 years:
Revelation 20:11-12 (Final judgement)
"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened."
This is where arguments become so heated because there are so many interpretations of what is going to happen when. Some believe that Christians will be raptured out before the tribulation, some believe they will have to live through it, some believe the dead are not in heaven or hades but there is some sort of purgatory where your soul is "asleep" or just kind of hanging out.....there will always be debates about these things.
That's why I stress the main factor, the only thing that really matters: Accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour and live a Godly life. That is made crystal clear all throughout the Bible, while other things are not so clear. All else will be automatically known as soon as we die. It's God's plan, we can only surmise and try to prepare others that the end is coming, whether it's the end of the world or the end of your life.
The spirits of the dead go to heaven. ie the theif on the cross was told "this day you will be with me in paradise". But the resurrection is the resurrection of our bodies. That is why the dead in Christ rise first. We will all have resurrected bodies like the Lord. Why do you think that it says concerning the raising of the dead that "the sea will give up her dead" unless it is talking about physical bodies. The dead in Christ will rise first, we will rise seccond immediatly after. As I said when he comes to reign it is here on earth. It says he decends with a shout of the arch angel. It does not say that he returns to heaven, but we rise to meet him in the air.
The spirits of the dead go to heaven. ie the theif on the cross was told "this day you will be with me in paradise". But the resurrection is the resurrection of our bodies. That is why the dead in Christ rise first. We will all have resurrected bodies like the Lord. Why do you think that it says concerning the raising of the dead that "the sea will give up her dead" unless it is talking about physical bodies. The dead in Christ will rise first, we will rise seccond immediatly after. As I said when he comes to reign it is here on earth. It says he decends with a shout of the arch angel. It does not say that he returns to heaven, but we rise to meet him in the air.
Only the Elect, the Saints, those that have overcome as Jesus overcame meet Him in the air. Even those who's lamps are full, those that can come and go as the wind.
Not those that just believe, and continue in unrighteousness.
I'm a believer, and in my current place of growth, do not expect to be taken up. I hope there is time to grow into the patience, temperance, Love and faith that is required to be a Saint. So this believer hopes He tarries.
No offense, but this thread, as I've said before, is perfect proof Christians are all over the place with their interpretations of scriptures to fit their own notions yet they all claim the holy spirit leads them in ALL truth.
We are not discussing whether Christ will return but how. We are not all over the place and we are using the scripture as the proof for the arguements. So it is through the Spirit and the word of God we perfect our understanding of the truth.
If you want to see confussion go read some Evolutionary commentary. They can't agree on anything except that we weren't created by God. And they hold to less evidence than any Christian.
I'm basing what I said on what FFA said in his posts. He is not only questioning it, he's saying that it's not true and applicable to us. Understanding the Word through the Spirit is one thing, saying it's not even true is another. See my post to Jadybug.
That is not what I'm saying at all. You are putting up a strawman argument and putting words into my mouth.
I am not contending it is not applicable to us. I am suggesting that you cannot rightfully interpret 1st century letters to first century believers through the lens of 21st century life. The reason so many people are so often confused by biblical scripture is because they attempt to do just that... take it ouf of its historical context.
Again, the new testament letters were not "written to us". In fact, they very clearly indicate who they were written to. Sometimes, there are often very specific instructions for very specific groups of people for very specific purposes ... and yes, I believe that much of those specific instructions does not apply to us today they "same way" it applied to the recipients of those instructions. The new testament letters have been preserved "for us".
If you insist that all of the bible is meant for us and is all universally applicable still today, then I must ask if you are abiding by all old testament law. You insist on a future tribulation and insist that all things have not yet come to pass, yet scripture says not one bit of the law shall pass before all things be fulfilled.
Getting back to the point of this thread ...
"And he causeth all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the bond, that there be given them a mark on their right hand, or upon their forehead; and that no man should be able to buy or to sell, save he that hath the mark, even the name of the beast or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. He that hath understanding, let him count the number of the beast; for it is the number of a man: and his number is six hundred and sixty and six."
If we take this passage with the intent of looking for a future fullfillment, of course it will seem mysterious and be open to speculation. When we look through the lens of history and take into account all of the "imminency" statements made by Christ and the new testament authors, it becomes very clear that this would not have been so mysterious to those in and around Jerusalem prior to A.D. 70 and that many would have been able to understand the passage and its correct interpretation very well.
New testament passages that speak of "the end being near" ... that does not mean "near to us now in the 21st century".
I have faith and trust in God and Jesus as my only hope for salvation. I honor his sacrifice. You contend that anyone who does not intepret scripture the same way you do must not be a true believer. You truly need to get out more.
Now, in addressing the last cry of Christ on the cross ... the "why have you forsaken me" ...
To forsake means to leave or abandon. IMHO, the best explanation for why Christ would have said this ...
The physical pain of dying on the cross I'm sure is a horrible thing. But that cannot possibly compare to the pain, guilt, humiliation, shame, regret, sorrow etc. that a person would feel if all the weight of all the sin in all the history of the world were poured out onto that one person in one instant. Couple that with with the understanding that in that instant, since God cannot abide sin or look upon it, the spirit of the father departed from Jesus in that moment. Here is a man who was never apart from the father throughout his life and now when he experiences a greater weight and burden than anyone ever has, he finds himself utterly alone.
Can you imagine ... going through your whole life feeling intimately connected with God ...always feeling his presence so strongly that there seems to be no clear line of demarcation of where you stop and he begins ... then in the moment before your death, being stricken with that kind of solitude and emotional and physical pain and all of a sudden feel the presence of God no longer ... to have him depart from you?
Here's a different pov on the "which is being interpretted" passage.
Eloi, Eloi Lama Sa Bachthani, the scribes got this one wrong, and it is clear that it is wrong because we have such a hard time wrapping our minds around it, why would Jesus ever say such a blasphemy.
He truly said, Father, Father, for this i came. Not why have you forsaken me.
I don't have the Aramaic translation with me. So anyone interested can look into it.
Such a remark should have been in all of the gospels, and it is not, even the scribes said, which is being interpretted. It is one of two main known errors in the bible, the other is Moses being buried. Look it up, it also says which is being interpretted, its like a scribe disclaimer.
Only the Elect, the Saints, those that have overcome as Jesus overcame meet Him in the air. Even those who's lamps are full, those that can come and go as the wind.
Not those that just believe, and continue in unrighteousness.
I'm a believer, and in my current place of growth, do not expect to be taken up. I hope there is time to grow into the patience, temperance, Love and faith that is required to be a Saint. So this believer hopes He tarries.
godspeed,
freedom
[SIZE=3]It is written in Romans 6:16: "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"[/SIZE]
So if you are in unrigheusness you are a servant to death. Rather "submit to God, resist the devil and he will flee from you". So, if a christian continues in unrighteousness are they a sevant of God's at all? Why should a person who continues in unrighteousness rise to meet Christ?
If you believe, but don't feel worthy to be in Christs pressence, why?
We are not discussing whether Christ will return but how. We are not all over the place and we are using the scripture as the proof for the arguements. So it is through the Spirit and the word of God we perfect our understanding of the truth.
If you want to see confussion go read some Evolutionary commentary. They can't agree on anything except that we weren't created by God. And they hold to less evidence than any Christian.
Well don't you guys have some special, inside track with God to enlighten you on the truth of the scriptures? Why all the confusion, differing opinions, churches, etc?
This scripture you quoted is telling Christians to "correct" and instruct, which is exactly what I am doing here. There's nothing self-serving, self-righteous, judgemental or elitist about it, as some say is my purpose for being here. It is out of love, love for Christ and the pride I feel to be able to stand up for Him and His Word, and the hope that the Holy Spirit will start working in someone who hears the Truth. If I were selfish, I wouldn't even be here.
P.S. II Timothy 3:16- "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness..."
There is a huge difference between using scripture for correction, reproof, instruction, etc ... and using "your interpretation" of scripture for "your own actions" of attempts to correct and instruct.
There is nothing that indicates you personally have any place or authority to correct or instruct anyone. There are numerous spirit filled, accomplished theologians much more capable and accomplished than any of us that do not agree with you perspective and certainly don't need any correction or reproof from you.
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