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86:4.7 (953.6) Early man entertained no ideas of hell or future punishment. The savage looked upon the future life as just like this one, minus all ill luck. Later on, a separate destiny for good ghosts and bad ghosts—heaven and hell—was conceived. But since many primitive races believed that man entered the next life just as he left this one, they did not relish the idea of becoming old and decrepit. The aged much preferred to be killed before becoming too infirm.
86:4.8 (953.7) Almost every group had a different idea regarding the destiny of the ghost soul. The Greeks believed that weak men must have weak souls; so they invented Hades as a fit place for the reception of such anemic souls; these unrobust specimens were also supposed to have shorter shadows. The early Andites thought their ghosts returned to the ancestral homelands. The Chinese and Egyptians once believed that soul and body remained together. Among the Egyptians this led to careful tomb construction and efforts at body preservation. Even modern peoples seek to arrest the decay of the dead. The Hebrews conceived that a phantom replica of the individual went down to Sheol; it could not return to the land of the living. They did make that important advance in the doctrine of the evolution of the soul.
Would someone explain what, precisely, would be the point of punishment after one is dead? The 'logic' in me tells me that incorporating 'punishment' into some 'divine master plan' would not be in keeping for an almighty God to have come up with.
This is a serious question. I trust someone has an answer.
Punishment is an entirely human response to the human concept of "justice" which is highly contaminated by the desire for revenge, IMO. It has nothing to do with God or a sense of Divine Justice which would necessarily need to repair the harm for all concerned, IMO.
No one goes to the lake of fire because of their sins because Jesus died for our sins. The Bible does suggest that there are degrees of punishment, but not because of sins. Rather, those who had greater revelation concerning Jesus and still rejected him will have greater punishment. But nothing like being boiled in oil or whatever else your imagination can come up with. More I think like mental anguish for having rejected Jesus.
Isn’ t salvation conditioned on belief that Jesus is the Son of God, and that we obey His commandment?
Isn’ t salvation conditioned on belief that Jesus is the Son of God, and that we obey His commandment?
Eternal salvation is conditioned upon believing that Jesus died for your sins. Not upon obeying his commandments. You are conflating the requirements for experiential sanctification/spiritual growth with the one requirement for eternal salvation which again is simply placing your faith alone in Christ alone.
Spiritual growth requires work, effort on our part. Eternal salvation does not require any work on our part. Jesus did all the work necessary to make eternal salvation possible. We simply trust in his completed work on the cross in order to receive the free gift of eternal life.
Isn’ t salvation conditioned on belief that Jesus is the Son of God, and that we obey His commandment?
No. Our Salvation is NOT conditioned on anything we do or do not do or believe or do not believe. We do not control what we truly believe, so what we claim to believe is irrelevant. What we do only affects our sanctification. Michael is correct about the salvation accomplished by Jesus alone, but we can have FAITH in it because it is TRUE! It is not a condition as Michael believes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
Eternal salvation is conditioned upon believing that Jesus died for your sins. Not upon obeying his commandments. You are conflating the requirements for experiential sanctification/spiritual growth with the one requirement for eternal salvation which again is simply placing your faith alone in Christ alone.
Spiritual growth requires work, effort on our part. Eternal salvation does not require any work on our part. Jesus did all the work necessary to make eternal salvation possible. We simply trust in his completed work on the cross in order to receive the free gift of eternal life.
FREE GIFTS are NEVER conditioned on anything, Michael.
No. Our Salvation is NOT conditioned on anything we do or do not do or believe or do not believe. We do not control what we truly believe, so what we claim to believe is irrelevant. What we do only affects our sanctification. Michael is correct about the salvation accomplished by Jesus alone, but we can have FAITH in it because it is TRUE! It is not a condition as Michael believes.
FREE GIFTS are NEVER conditioned on anything, Michael.
Though I've explained this before, I don't know how many times, I will do so again. Though a gift is free, one must take possession of the gift in order to have it. The means by which one stretches out his hand as it were to take possession of the free gift is by simply placing his trust in Jesus for eternal life.
Jesus himself said that one must have faith in him to be saved. The Gospel of John is very explicit about the necessity of faith in Christ in order to be saved.
Though I've explained this before, I don't know how many times, I will do so again. Though a gift is free, one must take possession of the gift in order to have it. The means by which one stretches out his hand as it were to take possession of the free gift is by simply placing his trust in Jesus for eternal life.
Jesus himself said that one must have faith in him to be saved. The Gospel of John is very explicit about the necessity of faith in Christ in order to be saved.
I know this makes absolute sense to you, Michael, but it has no logical basis. Either Jesus saved us by what HE DID or He didn't. Our belief has nothing to do with it! Only our sanctification depends on our belief and acceptance of the Truth of it. If we don't believe in Jesus(do not have Faith), it will not affect our lives or what we BECOME. Our age-during life (saved Spirit life) depends on what we BECOME.
I know this makes absolute sense to you, Michael, but it has no logical basis. Either Jesus saved us by what HE DID or He didn't. Our belief has nothing to do with it! Only our sanctification depends on our belief and acceptance of the Truth of it. If we don't believe in Jesus(do not have Faith), it will not affect our lives or what we BECOME. Our age-during life (saved Spirit life) depends on what we BECOME.
It makes perfect sense whether it does to you personally or not. And again, your opinion stands in stark contrast to what is taught in the NT, particularly in the Gospel of John. God requires a personal recognition our part that eternal life is dependent upon Jesus in order to take possession of the free gift of eternal life. Again, even a free gift must be appropriated in order to take possession of it. A free gift can be accepted or rejected. Your inability to understand this notwithstanding.
Though I've explained this before, I don't know how many times, I will do so again. Though a gift is free, one must take possession of the gift in order to have it. The means by which one stretches out his hand as it were to take possession of the free gift is by simply placing his trust in Jesus for eternal life.
Jesus himself said that one must have faith in him to be saved. The Gospel of John is very explicit about the necessity of faith in Christ in order to be saved.
I don’t think you and mystic are going to be able to come to an agreement because you are ‘called’ in/via totally different ‘ways’
These are just my observations and questions:-
But who is being saved from what?
Salvation is healing at the internal level and it frees us to do our own small part in Gods eternal kingdom that you and I both acknowledge, and from what I can understand it was Prophecied in the Hebrew Scriptures and it’s in the 1st century where it gets seeded in ‘the earth’ through Jesus
It is our own individual response to the gospel that leads us away from the various pre-existing religious entities that have and will ‘lord’ it over this physical/temporal realm/dimension
Mystic has no allegiance to any temporal religious authorities down here
You, me, anyone brought up in the traditions of Christianity have an inheritance down here religiously and we have an obligation because of that inheritance to work with the documents left via ‘the fathers’
Mystic’s trajectory is eastern Buddhist/atheist to free in a western land (America)
Yours is ?? to non-denominational
Mine is Presbyterian—- >>> Pentecostal ——>>> free (in NZ)
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