The Way it Is vs. The Way it Should Be (churches, believe)
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OK. You may have caught two threads I started recently in the R&P and Christianity forums.
Basically, I asked what was the first thing that came to mind when you think of Christianity and then I asked what was the first thing that came to mind when you thought of the first Christians.
On Christianity(and I am pulling these from mostly non-believers):
Hypocrisy/Hypocrites
Confusing
Guilt
Self-Righteous
Extremely Rare
Gullible
Dogmatic
Simpleton
Right-Wing
War
Close Minded
Judgmental
Fear
Separate
(That's not all inclusive so don't be offended if your word isn't in that list, please)
On the first Christians(most of these came from believers, but I was hoping for input from well-read non believers as well):
Servants
Obedient
Unison
Love
Truth
Completed
Believers
Fishers Of Men
Revolutionary
Faith
Changed
Humbled
Self-Sacrifice
Anticipating
One
Sons
Teachable
Convinced
Again, not an all inclusive list, so don't be offended if your particular word isn't on the list.
The point is this:
As Christians, how have we let ourselves get so far from our model(s). And, more importantly, what can we do now to try and return back to the grass roots purity that our faith was born in?
What I was trying to do in these threads, and I don't know if I was successful, was to show us, as believers, how those outside our faith view us and then show us what we should be showing others.
In other words, Christians say they see 'this' in the original disciples but those outside the faith say they see 'this' in us now.
OK. You may have caught two threads I started recently in the R&P and Christianity forums.
Basically, I asked what was the first thing that came to mind when you think of Christianity and then I asked what was the first thing that came to mind when you thought of the first Christians.
On Christianity(and I am pulling these from mostly non-believers):
Hypocrisy/Hypocrites
Confusing
Guilt
Self-Righteous
Extremely Rare
Gullible
Dogmatic
Simpleton
Right-Wing
War
Close Minded
Judgmental
Fear
Separate
(That's not all inclusive so don't be offended if your word isn't in that list, please)
On the first Christians(most of these came from believers, but I was hoping for input from well-read non believers as well):
Servants
Obedient
Unison
Love
Truth
Completed
Believers
Fishers Of Men
Revolutionary
Faith
Changed
Humbled
Self-Sacrifice
Anticipating
One
Sons
Teachable
Convinced
Again, not an all inclusive list, so don't be offended if your particular word isn't on the list.
The point is this:
As Christians, how have we let ourselves get so far from our model(s). And, more importantly, what can we do now to try and return back to the grass roots purity that our faith was born in?
What I was trying to do in these threads, and I don't know if I was successful, was to show us, as believers, how those outside our faith view us and then show us what we should be showing others.
In other words, Christians say they see 'this' in the original disciples but those outside the faith say they see 'this' in us now.
How do we reconcile these different pictures?
In the Christian list you left out the actual meaning which is Christlike.
This is why the greater opinion of self professed Christians is so weak, we don't know that we are to actually live the teachings and therefore become "LIKE" Christ.
The disciples (except one) lived the teachings and were able to pass that on to others to live.
In these last 50 yrs. the churches have accepted a watered down Jesus did it all type of churchianity that is without fruit. Very little if any accountability, exhortation or teaching of perfected Love.
In these last 50 yrs. the churches have accepted a watered down Jesus did it all type of churchianity that is without fruit. Very little if any accountability, exhortation or teaching of perfected Love.
Good points, freedom. Especially the above bolded word.. accountability. That is a huge factor. If I go to church, have no idea what my brother thinks, have no idea how my "pastor" is living, and they have no idea about me, the lack of personal and corporate responsibility this creates has disastrous results. Am I an integral part of a living, breathing, visible organism?
Ahhhh....now I see the purpose of the two threads. Nice, Alpha.
I do believe that we as Christians could do more to change this thinking of non-believers. Patience, kindness, gentleness, etc. But, non-believers could also do more to be realistic in the fact that the only person to ever grace this earth that was perfect was Jesus. We're all struggling, and Christians are not perfect. But we do know the perfect answer to these struggles.
But with that said, let's keep in mind that they do not believe. They will never know what we know, feel what we feel or see what we see until and unless they accept Christ. I think we probably need to do more seed-planting and trying to live more like Christ, rather than arguing among ourselves.
We are told in the Bible that Christians will be persecuted, and will be persecuted more aggressively and severely up until it's all over. What we see happening here on the board and in the world reflects that. Look what happened to Jesus. It is our yoke to bear...not easy, but we must delight in it.
1 Peter 4:12-16
"Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you.
But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.
If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the spirit of glory and of God rests on you.
If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler.
However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name."
Ahhhh....now I see the purpose of the two threads. Nice, Alpha.
I do believe that we as Christians could do more to change this thinking of non-believers. Patience, kindness, gentleness, etc. But, non-believers could also do more to be realistic in the fact that the only person to ever grace this earth that was perfect was Jesus. We're all struggling, and Christians are not perfect. But we do know the perfect answer to these struggles.
But with that said, let's keep in mind that they do not believe. They will never know what we know, feel what we feel or see what we see until and unless they accept Christ. I think we probably need to do more seed-planting and trying to live more like Christ, rather than arguing among ourselves.
We are told in the Bible that Christians will be persecuted, and will be persecuted more aggressively and severely up until it's all over. What we see happening here on the board and in the world reflects that. Look what happened to Jesus. It is our yoke to bear...not easy, but we must delight in it.
1 Peter 4:12-16
"Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you.
But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.
If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the spirit of glory and of God rests on you.
If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler.
However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name."
Good points DOTL and I can't disagree with any of them.
Do you think that explains or justifies a 'mind picture' of hypocrites when a non-believer thinks of the word Christian?
I wonder what non-believers see in the disciples as depicted in the New Testament. That would be interesting. Maybe I should move that thread to R&P and ask for non-believers viewpoints.
Well the way I see it is to take the list that the non-believers have seen and truly go before the Lord with it. Asking of Him to show me that with that list if and where my life may reflect any of those seen attributes of the flesh so that I may let Him cleanse it from my life. And truly repent of it.
But I do have to remember that the world is going to see us in a way, so that they can make their excuses for denying Christ and their own behavior.
That when we judge other's we are actually condemning ourselves. The things that one see's and judge's another is what usually in one's own heart and doing......
Romans 2:1
Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same thing.
So a christian has to be careful because we are not judged by the world's standards.
What the Lord says is wrong to do to the believer, the world thinks it is ok! So of course they will accuse the christian to justify their guilt..... and find whatever they can to condemn the christian to ease their conscience.
We are not going to please the world. They will always and have always condemn the christian. No matter how much love you show them.
Even Christ said, If the world hates you, they hated Him first.
We are also warned about being accepted by the world. As long as I have ever remembered that list has always been.
I'm one who before the Lord came into my heart said the same things.........
Well the way I see it is to take the list that the non-believers have seen and truly go before the Lord with it. Asking of Him to show me that with that list if and where my life may reflect any of those seen attributes of the flesh so that I may let Him cleanse it from my life. And truly repent of it.
But I do have to remember that the world is going to see us in a way, so that they can make their excuses for denying Christ and their own behavior.
That when we judge other's we are actually condemning ourselves. The things that one see's and judge's another is what usually in one's own heart and doing......
Romans 2:1
Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same thing.
So a christian has to be careful because we are not judged by the world's standards.
What the Lord says is wrong to do to the believer, the world thinks it is ok! So of course they will accuse the christian to justify their guilt..... and find whatever they can to condemn the christian to ease their conscience.
We are not going to please the world. They will always and have always condemn the christian. No matter how much love you show them.
Even Christ said, If the world hates you, they hated Him first.
We are also warned about being accepted by the world. As long as I have ever remembered that list has always been.
I'm one who before the Lord came into my heart said the same things.........
Great post, curly. Can't rep ya right now though
The first Christians simply followed Christ, didn't they?
One poor person suggested they were bewildered and confused half the time and wrong the other half. I couldn't disagree more. While they did not understand all that was happening, they were dead sure on one thing: Who Christ was and what they needed to do. Stay as close to Him as possible and just follow.
What does it mean to us to just truly follow Christ?
The first Christians simply followed Christ, didn't they?
One poor person suggested they were bewildered and confused half the time and wrong the other half. I couldn't disagree more. While they did not understand all that was happening, they were dead sure on one thing: Who Christ was and what they needed to do. Stay as close to Him as possible and just follow.
What does it mean to us to just truly follow Christ?
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