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I'm sorry, but if you are willingly doing all those things, you are not a Christian ! If you really think that you are, you are deceiving yourself, but nobody else.
The problem is, God does not give a woman the right to kill her child. And those who support her in doing so are equally guilty of murder in the eyes of God. So it is not just between her and God. And it is the Bible that adresses abortion not I. So please, don't claim it is me. And I am not judging anyone, God has already shown us in the Old Testament that abortion is wrong. I just believe what God has already stated. It appers to me, your more worried about your rights, then the life of one of Gods children. If it were not for legal pro choice, there would be many more children in this world, and please, don't tell me how these children would all be better off dead.
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Originally Posted by aquila
Christians should only be referred to as "pro-life". No woman should have the right to choose to kill her unborn child. It's not between her and God. It's simply up to GODalone, period. He is the one who determines if a human shall live or die, and no person has that right. Despite what anyone thinks, when a woman is pregnant it is NO LONGER her body that is at stake here. First of all, the Bible states that your body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit. It also states you were bought with a price and are to honor God with your body. (How does killing an unborn child honor God simply so you can retain your so-called "right" to choose what to do with your body?) Furthermore, if you're married, your body is no longer your own, but also your husband's.
No true Christian could ever possibly think they have the right to do what they want with an unborn child.
And yet, God gives us free will. Why should I think I can impose rules on people when He has given them CHOICE...all kinds of choices, not only related to childbearing. Granted, choices come with consequences, but He gives us choices anyway.
As Christians we are not required to make others obey or live to Christian standards. Our first duty is to be obedient ourselves and then to witness to others. Witness, not force by laws or rules that are based on our interpretation of scripture, even if we are interpreting correctly.
From that perspective I am pro-choice on many subjects.
It might be helpful if you could give references to Biblical passages where you feel abortion, drinking and fornication are addressed as not everyone is familiar.
It might be helpful if you could give references to Biblical passages where you feel abortion, drinking and fornication are addressed as not everyone is familiar.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
We must press towards the mark. We will never be perfect. Thats why God created forgiveness. and of course HIS "AMAZING GRACE"
HE can change our hearts!! I am living proof
PS i was NOT born saved. Lots of folks ACT like they have but I Gave my life to Christ at 39.75 years after being a very worldly person.(Allkinds of craziness) But now i am a Born Again, Saved By Grace, Child of God. Its been the BEST five years of my life now. ANd HE keeps on keepin me from going back to the muck and mire. HE had to dig DEEP down for me!!
Anything i did before that awesome day Sept 5, 2003, the WORD says HE throws into a sea of forgetfulness!! (I am paraphrasing here) Praise God!!
Jesus paid the debt that we could not pay for us at CALVARY.
Thats the GOOD NEWS!!! If HE can do it for me, HE can do it for you. HE is no respector of person AMEN.
I really appreciate ALL of you!~!
Glad to be here on your board
I originally wasn't going to address the hot button topic, of whether Christians can be pro-choice, and still be "true Christians", and what I'm going to say now certainly won't win me any popularity contests. I don't like abortion, especially when it's being used for birth control purposes, but it's not the government's place to make such heartrending decisions for individuals, particularly when rape, incest, or major medical problems are involved. Only the woman/girl, her family, and her doctor should be involved, (and her clergy, if she feels the need for spiritual guidance). I most assuredly would not suggest that one should automatically have an abortion under such conditions, but neither would I say that they should not, or cannot have one. I don't have to walk in their shoes, and it's the height of arrogance to assume that we know what it best for everyone else in these situations. I certainly wouldn't appreciate it if the government tried to intervene in such decision-making, for myself, my daughter, my step-daughter, or my granddaughter, so why would I think it's perfectly okay for the government to make such a decision for someone else? How can we think that we should be the ones, (through the government), to make such gut-wrenching decisions for other people?
There seems to be a consensus amongst many Christians that people are not true believers if they are pro-choice; that God is anti-abortion/pro-life, (as though God wears labels), and I've even noticed that the Old Testament has been cited as an example of his mindset on this subject. Now, here's the kicker, and where I'm going to play devil's advocate. Surely I cannot be the only one who's noticed that there is an awful lot of killing, including infanticide, in the Old Testament, at the commandment of, or by the direct action of, God? Everyone knows the story of the firstborn in Egypt being killed by God, (which obviously had to include brand-new, just out-of-the womb babies, as I seriously doubt all the first-born were grown adults), which always caused me to wonder why God felt he had to take out his irritation at Pharaoh on the children. The OT is rife with stories of God either killing children himself, or commanding it to be done, starting with the Flood, and moving through the OT. Here's just a few interesting examples:
II Kings 2:23-24 says: "And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them". Personally, I always thought that Elisha was just a little bit full of himself, (and ultra-sensitive), to react this way. Can we say, "anger management", boys and girls? But, the question to be asked here is, what does this action say about God's commitment to life, in answering Elisha's prayer in such a fashion? Would we think God was "pro-life" if our children were killed over such a nonsensical thing as teasing a preacher?
Numbers 31:15-18, (after the Israelites had made war against the Midianites, per God's command). The passage says: "And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But, all the women children, that hath not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves". Here we have a bunch of captive children whom Moses very blithely gives over, either to be killed, or sexually abused, as such is implied, (nevermind the women and girls, who had "known" a man, being killed). Granted, these four verses don't specifically state that God told Moses to do these things, but the implication is obvious, (and God certainly neither stops him, nor even takes him to task for such actions). After all, Moses was a man of God, (and remember, God commanded Moses to "avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites", Numbers 31:2). God also had specifically told Moses, (in Numbers 25:4-9), to slaughter 24,000 Israelites, because of their sin, and hang their heads up!
Ezekiel 9:6 says: "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women, but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary...Nothing like getting the killing started right at the door of the church, so to speak! Though this is apparently a vision that Ezekiel is having, isn't just a bit alarming that God's intentions are not for life, but for death, not just for adults, but for children as well?
1 Samuel 15:1-3, "Samuel also said unto Saul, The Lord sent me to annoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken unto the voice of the words of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant, and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass". Again, God does not discriminate; killing is all one and the same to him, regardless of sex or age, (I always wondered, would God have been just as angry at Saul had he spared the children, as opposed to sparing the sheep, oxen, and the lambs?).
To use the Old Testament, as an example God's purported anti-abortion/pro-life stance, or to chide other believers for their pro-choice position, puts one's tail in a wringer because someone is always going to point out these types of passages that don't add up. Over and over, throughout the Old Testament, there are stories of God slaughtering people, including children, or commanding, (either directly, or by implication), that it be done. Yes, there are passages that talk of God's love of life, but, no matter what kind of spin Christians put on the negative passages, the fact of the matter is that God had no problem with being anti-life, (or pro-choice, if you will), when it suited his purpose. If we are going to give God a label, that he is "pro-life", perhaps we would do better to first rip these kinds of "anti-life" passages out of our Bibles.
We frequently hear the refrain, "if you are pro-choice, you are pro-abortion; therefore, you cannot be, or are not, a true Christian", (i.e. a believer in, and follower of, Christ). Not only is this a foolish assumption, (being pro-choice doesn't mean one is pro-abortion, by any stretch), as well as arrogant, (we know other people's hearts?), but to make such a claim about another's beliefs places one on shaky ground, indeed, if one is going to cite the Old Testament as "proof" of such a statement.
CHAPTER XIX.--THE WAY OF LIGHT.
The way of light, then, is as follows. If any one desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. The knowledge, therefore, which is given to us for the purpose of walking in this way, is the following.
I'm a Christian that uses profanity, drinks, lies, doesn't go to church every week, doesn't tithe 10% etc etc... so I'm probably not a "true" Christian...
just like everyone else.
Well it's Jesus Christ who tells us a murderer cannot be a Christian. And anyone who supports murder would be in the same camp. So I think you are probably right in saying your not a "true" Christian.
I'm a Christian that uses profanity, drinks, lies, doesn't go to church every week, doesn't tithe 10% etc etc... so I'm probably not a "true" Christian...
just like everyone else.
I am pro life/anti choice (why are pro choice advocates not called pro death?) I do not use profanity, drink. In all honesty I try to keep lies to a minimum, I go to church every week or more often and I give at least 15% of my gross income to the God's work. Non of that makes me a Christian. I have accepted the sacrifice of Jesus for my sins and have made Him Lord of my life. That makes me a Christian. I do the things Jesus expects of His followers because I'm a Christian not to make me a Christian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marianinark I'm sorry, but if you are willingly doing all those things, you are not a Christian ! If you really think that you are, you are deceiving yourself, but nobody else.
Well it's Jesus Christ who tells us a murderer cannot be a Christian. And anyone who supports murder would be in the same camp. So I think you are probably right in saying your not a "true" Christian.
Like I said.. I'm not a "true" Christian.. like everyone else.
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I don't like abortion, especially when it's being used for birth control purposes, but it's not the government's place to make such heartrending decisions for individuals, particularly when rape, incest, or major medical problems are involved. Only the woman/girl, her family, and her doctor should be involved, (and her clergy, if she feels the need for spiritual guidance). I most assuredly would not suggest that one should automatically have an abortion under such conditions, but neither would I say that they should not, or cannot have one. I don't have to walk in their shoes, and it's the height of arrogance to assume that we know what it best for everyone else in these situations. I certainly wouldn't appreciate it if the government tried to intervene in such decision-making, for myself, my daughter, my step-daughter, or my granddaughter, so why would I think it's perfectly okay for the government to make such a decision for someone else? How can we think that we should be the ones, (through the government), to make such gut-wrenching decisions for other people?
), and I've even noticed that the Old Testament has been cited as an example of his mindset on this subject. Now, here's the kicker, and where I'm going to play devil's advocate. Surely I cannot be the only one who's noticed that there is an awful lot of killing, including infanticide, in the Old Testament, at the commandment of, or by the direct action of, God? Everyone knows the story of the firstborn in Egypt being killed by God, (which obviously had to include brand-new, just out-of-the womb babies, as I seriously doubt all the first-born were grown adults), which always caused me to wonder why God felt he had to take out his irritation at Pharaoh on the children. The OT is rife with stories of God either killing children himself, or commanding it to be done, starting with the Flood, and moving through the OT. Here's just a few interesting examples:
