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The JWs use Colossians 1:15 as a proof text to argue or prove that Jesus was first created by God. Now when you first read that verse, it does sound like that interpretation is a reasonable one.
KJV-R (Webster) Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature
The Greek word "prototokos" used for firstborn in Colossian 1:15 means that Jesus is the firstborn of creation. It also means that Jesus has preeminence over creation since ALL things or (all creation) were created through, for, and by Him.
Just from reading the context of Colossians Chapter 1, Paul makes it clear that God appointed or placed Jesus over creation.
At a certain point in history, Jesus “became flesh.” He possessed a truly human nature, and thus was a creature. I wouldn't disagree with Jesus being part of creation. So the fact that Jesus can be shown to be a member of creation tells us nothing whatsoever about His pre-existence before he “became flesh”, nor proves that he was created by God before all of creation, nor sheds any light on his ultimate identity or nature.
The burden of proof falls on the JW to show where in the bible does it teach that Jesus was created or to ask more directly, where in the bible does it explicitly state that God created Jesus first and then created all things through him?
My reasoning behind Jesus not being God's first creation is that the term “prototokos” doesn't require the “first in time—first in series”or mean first person born in a group or family. Is that true in all cases? No it is not and Scripture proves this.
If we look at Jeremiah 31:9, we see an example that blows the JW argument out of the water. This verse shows how the most prominent to God was actually called "my firstborn" (Ephraim). Although Manassah was actually the firstborn child(Genesis 41:50-52), God chose Ephraim and thus says "as for Ephraim, he is my firstborn" (Jer. 31:9).
It must be noted that God's choice of Ephraim over Manassah actually went clearly back to the literal sons of Joseph, and this is when the choice was actually made, and made over the initial protest of Joseph even. After giving Ephraim the precedence, Jacob predicts that the younger will be greater than the older and so we read: "thus he kept putting Ephraim before Manassah" (Genesis 48:20). Not only did he gain the prominence over Manassah but again to God, he was the "firstborn" not Manassah.
At Colossians 1:15, Paul rules out any thought of Jesus being the "first created". He gives as the grounds for the application of this title that Christ was hands on responsible for all creation in the first place and hands on responsible for it's reconciliation in the last place. Paul makes it plain that Jesus,"he is before all things", and that is the same thing John tells us in John 1:3, right after identifying Jesus as "theos". John says everything came into existence through "theos" and that there were no exceptions not to even one thing. This means that even the first thing that ever came into existence did so through Jesus.
Scripture also reveals that Christ was appointed heir of all things.
Heb. 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Psalms 2:7-8
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
As we see here Psalms 2:7-8 is actually cited in the Hebrews context, but what do we read at Psalms 2:7-8? We can't read it any clearer, “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father. Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your own possession.”
So how much difference is there between being “placed”... and being “appointed”? This idea can be expanded by reading Ps. 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
Ps. 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
After referencing Ps. 89:27 with Ps. 2:7, a person cannot miss the easy connection with Col. 1:15-17 where Paul likewise includes the same "...the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities."
Jesus deserves the designation “firstborn” because as Paul said, “He is before all things.” This harmonizes with John 1:3, and this is even more clear when understood against the background of the Colossian heresy that Paul was clearly addressing to them. The Colossians were teaching that there were many mediators. Paul had to refute that false teaching by addressing to the Colossians that only Jesus could be the true Mediator. Thus, only Jesus could identify with both being truly human and truly God because Jesus knows what it's like to actually be both.
John 5:23 states that
All men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father which hath sent him.
It is my prayer that JWs open their minds to the plain sense of God’s Word and be willing, against any earthly religious organization, to honor and esteem the Son “just as” they honor and only esteem the Father.
JWs explain that the reason they use God’s name is to honor Him, yet the bible tells us that if we do not honor the Son “just as” we do the Father, we aren’t honoring the Father either. The reason we are told that all judgment has been committed to the Son is so that we may recognize His true and ultimate identity or nature.
Who but the Creator, God-Jehovah, could be the judge of all creation? So if all judgment has been committed to the Son, who must He be? This forces one to really thing about it.
I’m NOT saying here that the Son is the Father or that the Father is the Son, but only that Jehovah ultimately includes the Son and the Holy Spirit. They are that single Authority in whose name believers were and are to be still baptized.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
King David was designated "firstborn" but he was the youngest so this first-born was not necessarily the oldest child. First-born referred not to birth order but to rank. The first-born possessed the inheritance and leadership, "Preeminence"
King David was designated "firstborn" but he was the youngest so this first-born was not necessarily the oldest child. First-born referred not to birth order but to rank. The first-born possessed the inheritance and leadership, "Preeminence"
Which was rightly applied ot Jesus at Collosians 1:15. Can't be any plainer than they way you defined firstborn.
Revelation 3:14: "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" (KJV)
Who is the Amen and the faithful and true witness?
2 Corinthians 1:19, 20: "For the Son of God, Christ Jesus, who was preached among YOU through us, that is, through me and Sil‧va′nus and Timothy, did not become Yes and yet No, but Yes has become Yes in his case. For no matter how many the promises of God are, they have become Yes by means of him. Therefore also through him is the “Amen” [said] to God for glory through us." (NWT)
What does it say about this person in the last part of this Scripture?
the beginning of the creation of God
Proverbs 8:22-33: "“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24 When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. 25 Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26 when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men." (New World Translation)
How could Wisdom be a master worker beside God?
How could wisdom rejoice?
How could wisdom be the "one he was specially fond of"?
How could wisdom be fond of the sons of men?
Was Jesus Christ ever called Wisdom?
1 Corinthians 1:24: "however, to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."
1 Corinthians 1:30 "You are partners with Christ Jesus because of God. Jesus has become our wisdom sent from God. . ." (God's Word Translation)
Wisdom is always female in the Bible.
1 John 4:8 - God is Love
The Greek word for love here (agape) is also feminine gender. God (masculine) is Love (feminine). Yet the Bible never refers to God as female.
Solomon, the principal writer of Proverbs applied the term 'congregator' to himself at Ecclesiastes 1:1 - this word in Hebrew is also of the feminine gender. Regardless of the female gender of a word, it can still be used to describe a man.
Please do not avoid the Scriptures which state that Jesus is Wisdom from God. I will requote them for you:
1 Corinthians 1:24: "however, to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."
1 Corinthians 1:30 "You are partners with Christ Jesus because of God. Jesus has become our wisdom sent from God. . ." (God's Word Translation)
Last edited by jehovahsservant; 06-02-2009 at 10:23 PM..
Strong's Reference to the word as used at Rev. 3:14 - 746.archear-khay' from 756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):--beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.
756.archomaiar'-khom-ahee middle voice of 757 (through the implication, of precedence); to commence (in order of time):--(rehearse from the) begin(-ning).
Roughly 90% of bible translations render the word "beginning", not source or origin. The English word beginning has a VERY specific meaning, as in the first in order, the first to occur, or the first spot in time. We know that God had no beginning. Incidentally, arche is the prefix used in the Greek word translated as archangel (Jude 1:9) as well. Here we understand that arche means chief or first angel. It does not mean the source of all angels, or the origin of angels. "Source" means from whence something came, the place or person from whence something comes. Incidentally though, the word "source" does NOT preclude that that source does not also come from a source. It is entirely possible for a source of something to also have a source. The source of a stream (tributary) may be a river, but the source of a river may be a marsh, and the source of a marsh may be underground springs or rainfall, the source of rainfall may be clouds, etc.
Regardless of how you translate the word arche into English - origin, source, beginning, Revelation 3:14 says the same thing.
If Jesus is God, you can transpose the words God and Jesus. Likewise, you can transpose the phrase "the Amen, the faithful and true witness" with God as well as Jesus. Therefor, the Scripture at Rev. 3:14 could be made to read:
"These things saith God, the beginning of the creation of God"
"These things saith Jesus, the beginning of the creation of Jesus"
"These things saith God, the source of the creation of God"
"These things saith Jesus, the origin of the creation of Jesus"
Conversely, if Jesus is God, you could also read this Scripture like so:
"These things saith God, the beginning of the creation of Jesus"
Did Jesus create God?
If these sentences honestly make sense to you, then I will leave you in peace. If they seem like terrible grammar and confusing to you, and you want to know more, I am happy to discuss it with you in private.
I will leave you with two last questions:
1. If Jesus is equal to God (as is stated by one of the descriptive rules of the trinity - all persons equally God, none lesser), then why would Jesus say: "the Father is greater than I"? (John 14:28) I encourage you to answer only via Scripture, and not your own reasoning or the quotes of trinitarian doctrinaires.
2. Consider Colossians 1:15 where it says Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation." (the literal translated words from the Greek) Regardless of what firstborn here means (see Rev 3:14), creation infers "the created." Now ask yourself - Was God created? Can God be described by the term "the created" as in "creation"?
"For YOU know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation." (2 Peter 1:20) - Let the Bible, God's Word, interpret itself.
yes, "wisdom" can be female... But Christ can not. any verse looking to the coming of the Christ is always male.. Always. case closed.
So proverbs 8 is talking about wisdom and is about a female wisdom, so it is not talking about a coming Christ or else we have the wrong Christ and Jesus was a lier.
So this is why Proverbs 8 is not talking about Christ in any way, shape, or form... Case closed.
Last edited by alanMolstad; 06-03-2009 at 03:31 AM..
As a human, he is like me then. I pray to the Father. The Father is greater than I.
If Jesus were to show that he understands me and what my life is like, then he too has to share my ability to pray to the Father.
Had Jesus not prayed to the Father than I would always have some doubt that Jeus was human or that he really knew what my life is like.
So the Father is Greater (in position) than the Son.
But is the Father "better" than the Son?......no! The Father is equal to the Son in nature. Both the ather and the Son are equally God Almighty
The WORD was with God The WORD was God...
This means that the WORD was with God almighty, and that whatever the God almighty is, so to is the WORD...
The Father is not more God than the Son, as both are always equal in nature.
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