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And if it did happen contemporary to those churches each and everyone of those churches was lied to.
Revelation 2
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold,[e] I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
That is devastating to any future interpretation. That church no longer exists and if it is yet future it is a complete and irrevocable failure to keep a promise.
If the tribulation spoken of in Revelation 3:10 refers to the great tribulation (as even posttribulationalists such as Gundry would strongly admit), then it is impossible to say that the great tribulation occurred in 70 A.D. because the book of Revelation was not written until about 20 years later, and this "*hour (#5610) of temptation" is spoken of as a future event ("which shall come upon all the world" oikoumene=the world as inhabited). Thus the promise of exemption from this hour of testing which was made to the church of Philadelphia had reference not to 70 A.D. but to a future tribulation which would be world-wide in scope.
Fair enough, RobinD69: Since you have started this thread, perhaps you could explain to us how you wish to proceed. I will follow your lead. For example, do you want to give us the chapter and verses you would like to cover before we head on to others. I make this promise to all. I will present the results of my study--if others disagree with my findings, even if I do not feel that they have adequately presented their position, I will not insist on arguing over it so that we can move on at your direction!
Again, I do want to learn. I do not have this book figured out. I will be learning along with others. I simply am not interested in turning this into a study based on speculations. If I do not fully understand a verse or a passage, I will say so. If I feel there are a number of possible understandings, I will present them and not be dogmatic about any one of them, realizing that my seeing more than one possibility is my fault and not the fault of the Scriptures. The true interpretation is always there; we must all struggle and work to find it.
I wish I could truly let you see my heart. You would see how I have mourned and repented at the number of people I have led astray as a teacher of God's Word! It is my earnest prayer that those whom I have deceived (even while not intentionally) have since discovered the falsehood of my instruction! If you could know my heart, you would know that I never, ever want to do that again. How precious are the Scriptures to the body of Christ. There is no other system of belief that has the very word of God at its disposal for correction, reproof, and instruction in godliness. I want to know it and thereby better know Him, the author. It is because I have been deceived by my own lack of diligence and itching ears that I require that anyone who is going to instruct me do so in a way that completely honors the words of Scripture. We are all prone to error. We must always be one our guard--what I say to you I say first of all to myself. Do we really know why we believe what we believe?
Let us know how you wish to proceed. I look forward to learning amazing things from this amazing book!
In Christ, Preterist
As I have tried to explain, and I should have been clear from the beginning, I want to cover the entire book of Revelation without outside quotes or any debate first. Once we get thru the whole book then we can come out swinging so to speak. This is why I want all perspectives covered, keep notes to agreements and disagreements as well as outside quotes and once we are done with Revelation we can discuss the disagreements and those who feel uncomfortable with debates can sit back and watch. I figure if we take our time and go thru the whole book without conflict first then we will be more willing to listen to others rather than let our prides cause insult. I figure we can cover one chapter per day and you can choose which verses stand out to you and your personal interpritation of the chapter and verses without someone automatically telling you you are wrong. This will come later after the book is done, but we want to listen to one another first and lift each other up, build up some who have a hard time expressing themselves and then, without hurting anyone, when the book is done approach where we may have conflict. Some will not want to be in that part of the discussion, but hopefully we will all have a better understanding of one another and greater respect for differing views because we listened instead of argued.
RobinD69: Are we into chapter 2 already? I just asking--no insult intended. As I asked in another post to you, how do you wish to proceed. If you could give us some structure and we could all deal with specific verses before moving on, I think that would help. Some are asking great questions, but they are questions concerning chapters later on in the Revelation. I would like to proceed chapter by chapter and verse by verse so that we do not get ahead of ourselves. I am still curious how people understand the time statements in the first chapter. As for your question concerning the churches of chapter 2, how are they reconciled to these clear time words if the things concern far-future churches? Again, I think many of our questions will hopefully be answered as we move on.
Perhaps as we move on we might see that the things that were to shortly take place in John's day fit quite nicely those first-century churches and none other! Perhaps!
In Christ, Preterist
I just explained in another responce to you and a few others, so no insult taken. I should have been more clear when I started the thread but I am used to the threads I start dying quickly or getting shut down quickly.
I see you have the idea I am trying to get across, I am seeking to encourage those who would normally want nothing to do with a touchy subject, this is why I want to take it slow so we all listen instead of react and counter.
If the tribulation spoken of in Revelation 3:10 refers to the great tribulation (as even posttribulationalists such as Gundry would strongly admit), then it is impossible to say that the great tribulation occurred in 70 A.D. because the book of Revelation was not written until about 20 years later, and this "*hour (#5610) of temptation" is spoken of as a future event ("which shall come upon all the world" oikoumene=the world as inhabited). Thus the promise of exemption from this hour of testing which was made to the church of Philadelphia had reference not to 70 A.D. but to a future tribulation which would be world-wide in scope.
Very good points, I will have to look at that tommorrow. Again I apologize to everyone for not being more clear on my goals. Sunday will be chapter 3 and then a new chapter every day. I will get better at this one of these days.
Very good points, I will have to look at that tommorrow. Again I apologize to everyone for not being more clear on my goals. Sunday will be chapter 3 and then a new chapter every day. I will get better at this one of these days.
I forgot to add this to my other post....
Rev. 2:8 ¶ And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Two things here. If you will notice there are only 2 of the 7 churches that Jesus has nothing against. Smryna and
Philadelphia. Also notice He says they will not be hurt of the 'second death.' The second death is the 'lake of fire,' and involves the death of the soul. The judgement involving the lake of fire and or the death of anyone's soul didn't happen in 70 A.D.
P.S. since you don't want any other Scripture posted I didn't give the passage that speaks of the death of the soul..
Interesting fact that these two cities in Turkey (Asia Minor) are the only ones which have had a continuous existence. The Lord really did remove His lampstand from the others. And now, there is terrible persecution for Christians living in Turkey, increasingly as time goes on. Yet this was the place of intense Christian activity in the early years. The churches in Asia Minor were the livliest in the whole area, and John spent his time there, some of it exilted on the island of Patmos, which is off the Turkish coast.
I am reading a book at the moment on the symbolism of the Tabernacle, and it struck me that the seven pieces of furniture in the Tabernacle ie the altar, laver bowl, candlestick, the table of shewbread, the ark of the testimomy, the altar of incense and the mercy seat, which are explained by the author to be the seven stages of progress in the spiritual life, may be connected to the seven churches.
I think that it is too fast to go through Revelation one chapter at as time , I would prefer one chapter a week, for me that is.
My understanding of Revelation is not the mainstream one, though many also understand it like me especially the early Quakers, who understood it ias a book of symbolism and therefore always applicable to the believer who is in 'the way' or who has crucified the old man and is living in the Spirit. Certainly, the promises of the kingdom in Revelation are fulfilled in the present for them.
Exactly how I feel about it. That's why I said "cold" to begin with.
That is a correct word to use. Now I have to say I honestly haven't checked deeply into the preterism teachings other than they teach everything has already happened, but what their teachings fails to understand is the Bible is not just a "history book" filled with 'cold' facts.
Does it have History in it? Sure. Does it have 'facts' in it? Of course. But It is SO much more than that. It is a book of hope! It's a book of faith! It's a book of victory! It's a book of comfort! It's a book of figures and types !And most of all It's a love letter from God to His elect. A love letter that says: "Hope in Me, I will come again, and you will be with Me always. Have faith in Me for I am able to do exceedingly abundantly. Believe in Me and you will have victory in your life. Come unto Me all you who are heavily laden and I will give you rest."
hope: 1Co 15:19 If in this lifeonly we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable
faith: Heb. 11:1 ¶ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen
victory: Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken.
comfort: Ps 61:2 From the end of the earth will I cry unto thee, when my heart is overwhelmed: lead me to the rock that is higher than I.
types/figures: Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
love letter:Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
So I don't need to read history of Nero, Antiocus, Josephus, etc etc. I just need to read the love letter my Saviour has sent to me and wait patiently, knowing my hope of resurrection lies in Him.
Very good points, I will have to look at that tommorrow. Again I apologize to everyone for not being more clear on my goals. Sunday will be chapter 3 and then a new chapter every day. I will get better at this one of these days.
My notes on chapter 3....
v.3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what *hour I will come upon thee.
hold fast and watch all imply something that will happen...not something that has already happened.
*this hour refers to the hour of temptation that is to come upon the whole world. (Hasn't happened yet).
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and *I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
*no ones name has been blotted out of the book of life yet because no one has experienced the 'second death' (yet)or their soul would have been throw into the lake of fire.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
This can only happen to the elect ('before thy feet') when they are in Christ's presence, at/before His feet, for only He is to be worshiped.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to *try them that dwell upon the earth.
Hasn't happened yet either. Note 'has kept' and 'will keep' and 'the hour of temptation. '(same hour spoken of above.)
*try means to 'assay'..this is a word that involves being tested by fire (as in gold and silver...dross comes to the top). This will happen during the tribulation.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my *new name.
No temple of God at this time (except of course our bodies). No new Jerusalem at this time (and we haven't seen it come down out of heaven yet).
* new name:
Isa. 62:44 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called *Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
*Hephzibah= my delight is in her (who is the 'her?' ...His bride).
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold *tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
*tried in the fire... again same as the word 'try' above
V. 18 is our promise to the elect from their Husband, and Saviour:
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will *try them as gold is *tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, *It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God!!
* It is my people...Ammi...(not, LoAmmi= not my people).
I cant' wait!!
blessings,
Last edited by mshipmate; 03-01-2009 at 09:31 AM..
If the tribulation spoken of in Revelation 3:10 refers to the great tribulation (as even posttribulationalists such as Gundry would strongly admit), then it is impossible to say that the great tribulation occurred in 70 A.D. because the book of Revelation was not written until about 20 years later, and this "*hour (#5610) of temptation" is spoken of as a future event ("which shall come upon all the world" oikoumene=the world as inhabited). Thus the promise of exemption from this hour of testing which was made to the church of Philadelphia had reference not to 70 A.D. but to a future tribulation which would be world-wide in scope.
Hi mshipmate,
There is an over reliance on Irenaeus for the 90 AD date. External evidence even shows a Syriac version expressing Nero. We can debate that elsewhere however as it seems the poster wants to do something in particular.
No disrespect but we are only in chapter 2 and we are seeking different perspectives as we go. Please keep your notes for when we got to 16 and any debatable discussions will be after we complete Revelation. I really want alot of people, including those who have no desire to argue, to give their perspectives and then after we are done with the perpsectives we will open into deeper discussions or debates, but please lets take things slow so all can participate. You have some good points as do many but I really want more perspectives.
Hi RobinD69,
None taken. In that case I think I will retire from this thread at least for now. I think I am a bit late and its perhaps too ambitious for my tastes in this format. I will be happy to lurk to see if it works out. -God Bless
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