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It was indeed nicely said, Meerkat! And yes, we do have an awesome God.
"God has now revealed to us His mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill His own great pleasure. And this is the plan. At the right time He will bring everything together under the authority of Christ-everything in heaven and on earth. Furthermore, because we are united with Christ we have received an inheritance from God, for He chose us in advance, and He makes all things work out according to His plan."
When Jesus said those words while on the cross he was talking about his act of redemption, yes. However, while that was done at once for all, I was not there. It is Christ who transcends time, not me. I could not receive the benefit until my faith came to rest on Him.
Another analogy might be this. Suppose I was having a birthday party and Jesus came to my door offering a gift. Unless I open the door and accept the gift I cannot truly claim it. Also, I would not be able to truly accept it without also accepting the giver, i.e. invite him into the party.
(some of you are already wanting to pounce and say "I could take a gift at the door and not let the guy in!"...let's be fair to my analogy...besides, you can't really steal from God and enjoy the gift.)
So are you suggesting that you had to choose the "Free Gift" of life the day your mother brought you into this world? Seriously, You didn't get to open the door and choose that gift did you? God thrust you into this world, without your consent or choice, just like He can save you without your permission.
if there were a place of eternal torment where "satan" reigns, if even one child were "separated" from God, S/he would not be Omnipotent, would not be All in all. but God IS. a belief in the restitution of all things is not founded upon a book or creed, but upon the Divine Nature of the One who is Love, who is Light, in whom is NO DARKNESS at all. selah
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man If God planned on redeeming everyone whether they believed on Him or not: why send his Son to die?
why give us the bible, since knowing Him becomes irrelevant in eternity?
Why give Adam and Eve a choice and a warning about eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
why reward those who follow his commands?
why would He allow that drunk driver to kill an innocent family?
why should anyone not seek their own ways (lie, cheat, steal, etc.)?
I understand God's love is perfected in that what He desires and what He forces upon those He loves is not always the same. I desire much for my kids. However, even if I could give them everything I wouldn't do it if their hearts were hardened and wicked. God is not the omnipotent enabler. (by enabler I mean one who enables anothers bad habits.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist
I have asked that question and they didn't respond to me, curious to read the answer.
1. If God planned on redeeming everyone whether they believed on Him or not: why send his Son to die?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world..... It does not say that whosoever believes in eternal torment shall be saved, does it?
No one comes to the Father but by the Son, surely you've read these verses, this is pretty simple.
2. why give us the bible, since knowing Him becomes irrelevant in eternity?
Hardly, that's the whole point, are you an enemy of God?
3. Why give Adam and Eve a choice and a warning about eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
Why give any child the choice to obey? Without the loop of decision and consequence, lessons are not learned, the difference between wisom and knowledge is experiencing consequence.
4. why reward those who follow his commands? Remember the workers in Matthew 20:1-16, who grumbled about receiving the same pay(reward) as those that did not work as long as they had? That's what you are doing here.
5. why would He allow that drunk driver to kill an innocent family? No one can answer this except Him. I know from personal experience.
6. why should anyone not seek their own ways (lie, cheat, steal, etc.)? This question perfectly demontrates the evil bound up in the heart of men, it is shameful that a "believer" would even imply that it is better to live a sinful life than to love and follow God. In asking you have just revealed the wickedness within and the NEED for God to change men's hearts, because even after being "saved" the heart still longs for sin. I assume you confess salvation? You see without the FEAR of Hell, men would NOT choose, of their own "Free" will to follow God, that is EXACTLY WHY Christ must Drag us to Himself, and to execute His Judgments and Chastisement until we have the revelation of His Love. You couldn't have made the point any more obvious with your question. We are all sinners, saved only by His Mercy and Grace through the cross, No go back and mediate on why you even asked Question #1.
Yes men would choose God if the true gospel was being announced . Read the gospels and book of Acts to see how the true gospel was received .
Jesus said the Spirit of the Lord is upon me(not the spirit of fear and wrath) to preach good news
18The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon Me, because He has anointed Me [the Anointed One, the Messiah] to preach the good news (the Gospel) to the poor; He has sent Me to announce release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to send forth as delivered those who are oppressed [who are downtrodden, bruised, crushed, and broken down by calamity],
God does not use a fear gospel to draw men unto himself period . The gospel is
2 Cor 5
18But all things are from God, Who through Jesus Christ reconciled us to Himself [received us into favor, brought us into harmony with Himself] and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation [that by word and deed we might aim to bring others into harmony with Him]. 19It was God [personally present] in Christ, reconciling and restoring the world to favor with Himself, not counting up and holding against [men] their trespasses [but cancelling them], and committing to us the message of reconciliation (of the restoration to favor).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man If God planned on redeeming everyone whether they believed on Him or not: why send his Son to die?
why give us the bible, since knowing Him becomes irrelevant in eternity?
Why give Adam and Eve a choice and a warning about eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
why reward those who follow his commands?
why would He allow that drunk driver to kill an innocent family?
why should anyone not seek their own ways (lie, cheat, steal, etc.)?
I understand God's love is perfected in that what He desires and what He forces upon those He loves is not always the same. I desire much for my kids. However, even if I could give them everything I wouldn't do it if their hearts were hardened and wicked. God is not the omnipotent enabler. (by enabler I mean one who enables anothers bad habits.)
1. If God planned on redeeming everyone whether they believed on Him or not: why send his Son to die?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world..... It does not say that whosoever believes in eternal torment shall be saved, does it?
No one comes to the Father but by the Son, surely you've read these verses, this is pretty simple.
2. why give us the bible, since knowing Him becomes irrelevant in eternity?
Hardly, that's the whole point, are you an enemy of God?
3. Why give Adam and Eve a choice and a warning about eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
Why give any child the choice to obey? Without the loop of decision and consequence, lessons are not learned, the difference between wisom and knowledge is experiencing consequence.
4. why reward those who follow his commands? Remember the workers in Matthew 20:1-16, who grumbled about receiving the same pay(reward) as those that did not work as long as they had? That's what you are doing here.
5. why would He allow that drunk driver to kill an innocent family? No one can answer this except Him. I know from personal experience.
6. why should anyone not seek their own ways (lie, cheat, steal, etc.)? This question perfectly demontrates the evil bound up in the heart of men, it is shameful that a "believer" would even imply that it is better to live a sinful life than to love and follow God. In asking you have just revealed the wickedness within and the NEED for God to change men's hearts, because even after being "saved" the heart still longs for sin. I assume you confess salvation? You see without the FEAR of Hell, men would NOT choose, of their own "Free" will to follow God, that is EXACTLY WHY Christ must Drag us to Himself, and to execute His Judgments and Chastisement until we have the revelation of His Love. You couldn't have made the point any more obvious with your question. We are all sinners, saved only by His Mercy and Grace through the cross, No go back and mediate on why you even asked Question #1.
Cyno. I appreciate the response and I can definitely see your point because I do not share the arminian perspective. I am going to post a thread this week that will anger many against me and I hope you join in the debate.
if there were a place of eternal torment where "satan" reigns, if even one child were "separated" from God, S/he would not be Omnipotent, would not be All in all. but God IS. a belief in the restitution of all things is not founded upon a book or creed, but upon the Divine Nature of the One who is Love, who is Light, in whom is NO DARKNESS at all. selah
Why must this be so. God is omnipotent and can choose to let a place of separation exist. Revelation 20:11-15 gives a clear example of this. I don't agree "all in all" is a clear enough phrase to mean it the way you have been using it. God said he is the "I Am"; Jesus said he is the beginning and the end, but what it means is not as easy to explain because it means many things and not one exact thing.
We must be able to reconcile perfect love with perfect judgment, since God is both. What I have frequently read in this thread is an apparent tendency to have a God of perfect love but with limited judgment, or vice versa. He is both, therefore we must be able to see both of these qualities in him while avoiding to put him in a box that limits either of these qualities.
But you are not the judge God is . You show me one place in the scripture where God's judgement leads to eternal torment ,and where the 2 words eternal and hell are used together in the same sentence .
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