Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The election of Peter by Jesus was not dependent on Rome.
There is nothing magical about Rome.
Rome became the Holy See later. At the time Jesus selected Peter there was no Vatican City.
Protestants think they get mileage on the Rome argument because they erroneously believe the Popes must work out of Rome. They forget that the papacy was once in France.
Peter is the first Earthly leader of Christianity. That is quite obvious from the NT.
The Rome argument is moot.
After Peter, every "Pope" in the canonized list of Popes is the Bishop of Rome. Every pope that lived in Avignon France was still ordained as Bishop of Rome before he could be considered the pope.
But even if Rome is completely irrelevant as you claim, that doesn't tell us anything one way or another about the Pope is Peter's successor. Why would it? Peter never indicates that he will ever have a successor anyways. Neither does anyone other NT apostle or writer. All you have is several passages that -- when read through the lens of "Catholicism is true" -- seem to validate your belief in Petrine Succession. But you have to read a lot into each passage in order for it to mean what you want it to.
In the words of Inigo Montoya in the Princess Bride:
I believe Jesus was speaking of himself when he said upon This rock will I build the church another verse refers to Jesus being the chief cornerstone and again the stone the builders have rejected. Jesus was only giving the similarities of Peters name to Jesus's own nature. As all must agree the church is built on Jesus not on Peter. Besides Peter proved time and again he couldnot stand up against the gates of hell, but Jesus did much more the gates of hell could not hold him it is in reference of his resurection.
How about hades meaning death or grave?...Was Yeshua talking about the reurrection?...
After Peter, every "Pope" in the canonized list of Popes is the Bishop of Rome. Every pope that lived in Avignon France was still ordained as Bishop of Rome before he could be considered the pope.
But even if Rome is completely irrelevant as you claim, that doesn't tell us anything one way or another about the Pope is Peter's successor. Why would it? Peter never indicates that he will ever have a successor anyways.
OMG!
Peter ordained a lot of folks.
Popes do not name their successors.
Peter ordained Clement, but not as Pope. Clement became Pope later.
You guys are very confused. Apostolic Succession is the chain that goes back to the Apostles.
When a a priest becomes the new Pope the priest is already in the chain of Apostolic Succession. As Pope he becomes the successor of Peter. No different that when Obama became the successor of George Washington.
And Jesus encouraged succession. People wanted his disciples to be teachers.
Paul trained Timothy.
Peter trained Mark, one of the writers of the gospel.
.......
I feel bad about these arguments. It is simply too easy to debate all the erroneous dogma you have been fed by your Protestant minister.
BTW, many Protestant ministers with a Doctor degree are often called Doctor.
Please don't start resorting to the "paste a wall of text and baffle them with bull----" line of argument. Not a single one of those quotes came even close to doing what I asked you to do.
Let's recapitulate: The "call no man Father" quote is entirely about the fact that we are all brothers and should not claim preeminence and should not accord preminence to others. You claimed that the words "father" and "teacher" were used in the New Testament about people who were or did those things and I asked you to provide one quote where either term was used as a title to indicate authority or superior position over anyone else.
Please just answer the point simply and directly without a smokescreen.
Incidentally, the fact that some Proitestants make the same error does not excuse the promotion of it by the Roman Catholic denomination.
Please don't start resorting to the "paste a wall of text and baffle them with bull----" line of argument. Not a single one of those quotes came even close to doing what I asked you to do.
Let's recapitulate: The "call no man Father" quote is entirely about the fact that we are all brothers and should not claim preeminence and should not accord preminence to others. You claimed that the words "father" and "teacher" were used in the New Testament about people who were or did those things and I asked you to provide one quote where either term was used as a title to indicate authority or superior position over anyone else.
Please just answer the point simply and directly without a smokescreen.
Incidentally, the fact that some Proitestants make the same error does not excuse the promotion of it by the Roman Catholic denomination.
So calling Abraham father does not do it for you?
When Paul labeled himself and apostle does not do it for you?
When Paul labeled himself and apostle does not do it for you?
No, Abraham was labeled as "Father" because he was the ancestor of everyone who was a Jew, not because he had some authority over them. "Apostle" is a job description, not a title as we are discussing here. Now there are some branches that actually use "Apostle" as a title for some of their functionaries, and that is just the same as using the title "Father," or "Reverend" or "Pastor" for that matter.
You are hereby authorized to point out hypocrisy in anyone who berates you for using "Father" while themselves using "Reverend."
No, Abraham was labeled as "Father" because he was the ancestor of everyone who was a Jew, not because he had some authority over them. "Apostle" is a job description, not a title as we are discussing here. Now there are some branches that actually use "Apostle" as a title for some of their functionaries, and that is just the same as using the title "Father," or "Reverend" or "Pastor" for that matter.
You are hereby authorized to point out hypocrisy in anyone who berates you for using "Father" while themselves using "Reverend."
Quote:
2 Timothy 1:11
King James Version (KJV)
11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
1 Corinthians 12:28-29
King James Version (KJV)
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
Rome forgets to look at the entire text. They only pick out what they like and base their theology on some Bible verses and then ignore others. If you look at the context of this text you'll see that Jesus has asked the disciples "Who do you say I am?" Peter's response it, "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God" That statement, that doctrine is the "rock" on which Jesus builds his church. Himself and the faith that confesses the truth. Not Peter.
Rome forgets to look at the entire text. They only pick out what they like and base their theology on some Bible verses and then ignore others. If you look at the context of this text you'll see that Jesus has asked the disciples "Who do you say I am?" Peter's response it, "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God" That statement, that doctrine is the "rock" on which Jesus builds his church. Himself and the faith that confesses the truth. Not Peter.
It is find and dandy that the Church is built on Jesus.
However, Jesus gives Peter the keys in the next verse.
And after the resurrection Jesus names Peter pastor of his flock three times.
Julian, sit back, stop being defensive and answer the point I made. Yes there are teachers and apostles and all the other gifts that are given for the operation of the church, but one is not to be esteemed above another and that is exactly what we do when we give men titles based on their job or position in the body of Christ and THAT is exactly what Jesus was talking about when He said we are all brothers and should not call anyone "father" or whatever title acknowledging superiority in any degree.
That is why I asked you to show me NOT that there are different jobs, but that someone was called BY a title of job as an indication of acknowledgement of superior position.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
