The Bible Teaches that Jesus made St. Peter the First Pope (Kingdom, verse)

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by ChristyGrl

I have to beg to differ with you there...being an ex-Catholic and all...they did and still do worship & pray to Mary and the dead saints. They even now say Mary is co-redemptrix with Christ....extremely blasphemous in my opinion. The pope thinks he is Jesus (God's representative) on earth for goodness sakes. All this info can be found at the Vatican website. It's not surprising given this false Christianity stems from paganism in the first place.

I pretended to be Catholic until my 14th year or so. There is a difference between asking someone to pray for us (dead or alive . . . since none of us actually die . . . as in cease to be) . . . and worship . . . (which is for our benefit NOT God's by the way). That whole jealous thing is bogus anyway . . . God has NO human weaknesses and jealousy is a human weakness. ALL the hierarchic doctrines are bogus . . . the whole point of the "those who would be first . . . " injunction was to eliminate . . . NOT justify hierarchy. We agree that all organized religions seem to have gone astray from the teachings and example of Christ.

[Oakback]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

I pretended to be Catholic until my 14th year or so. There is a difference between asking someone to pray for us (dead or alive . . . since none of us actually die . . . as in cease to be) . . . and worship . . . (which is for our benefit NOT God's by the way). That whole jealous thing is bogus anyway . . . God has NO human weaknesses and jealousy is a human weakness. ALL the hierarchic doctrines are bogus . . . the whole point of the "those who would be first . . . " injunction was to eliminate . . . NOT justify hierarchy. We agree that all organized religions seem to have gone astray from the teachings and example of Christ.

I'm sure you know there are whole "orders" that are very "mystical", and would not disagree with you.

We humans thrive for community. As I believe God designed us so.
I can only pray that someday we will be able to refer to our community, rather than one of thousands of seperate and competing ones.

[ChristyGrl]

Originally Posted by Oakback

I'm sure you know there are whole "orders" that are very "mystical", and would not disagree with you.

We humans thrive for community. As I believe God designed us so.
I can only pray that someday we will be able to refer to our community, rather than one of thousands of seperate and competing ones.

It will happen one day....

[Oakback]

Originally Posted by ChristyGrl

It will happen one day....

Yes. I believe it will.

[justamere10]

Originally Posted by justamere10

Although Peter was the chief apostle and was given the apostolic sealing power, he was not made pope of a church that would not even exist in his time.

In the context of Matthew 16 verses 15 through 19 it seems clear that what the Lord is referring to is the process of REVELATION, not Peter himself, as the rock upon which he would build his church.


Matt. 16: 15-19

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock (the rock of revelation from God the Father) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


Matthew 16

I'm a bit surprised that nobody responded to my comments. It seems plain to me in those scriptures that Jesus is telling Peter that he (Jesus) will build his church on the rock of revelation, not on Peter himself. Does anyone else agree with that interpretation?

[imbobbbb]

Originally Posted by justamere10

I'm a bit surprised that nobody responded to my comments. It seems plain to me in those scriptures that Jesus is telling Peter that he (Jesus) will build his church on the rock of revelation, not on Peter himself. Does anyone else agree with that interpretation?

yes

[Submariner]

Originally Posted by justamere10

I'm a bit surprised that nobody responded to my comments. It seems plain to me in those scriptures that Jesus is telling Peter that he (Jesus) will build his church on the rock of revelation, not on Peter himself. Does anyone else agree with that interpretation?

That is what I was taught in seminary.

[Genesis2]

Originally Posted by ChristyGrl

As a former Catholic...who ran from that pagan heresy....I absolutely agree with you

Call No Man Your Father

Matthew 23:8-10
8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' (Gr. rabbi) for you have only one Master (Gr. didaskalos, kathegetes) and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' (Gr. patera) for you have one Father (Gr. pater), and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' (Gr. kathegetai) for you have one Teacher (Gr. kathegetes), the Christ.” (NIV)

Matthew 23:8-10
8”But be not ye called Rabbi (Gr. rabbi): for one is your Master (Gr. didaskalos, kathegetes), even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9And call no man your father (Gr. patera) upon the earth: for one is your Father (Gr. pater), which is in heaven. 10Neither be ye called masters (Gr. kathegetai) : for one is your Master (Gr. kathegetes), even Christ.” (KJV)


Based on the preceding passage, many non-Catholics claim that the Catholic Church violates the scriptural prohibition against calling anyone “father” since its priests are commonly called “father” and the pope is referred to as the “Holy Father.” Is this really what the Bible teaches? Let’s take a closer look at other verses to see whether this is really what the Bible tells us.

Jesus Violates This Command

Luke 16:24
24So he called to him, “Father (Gr. pater) Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.”

Jesus tells a parable in which He has one of the characters speak to “Father Abraham” which would obviously be a bad example for His audience. Does Jesus contradict Himself?

Paul Violates This Command

Romans 4:1-18
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter?

In this passage, Paul refers to Abraham as a spiritual father eight times. This is a terrible precedent to establish if Jesus has prohibited us from using the term “father.”

1 Corinthians 4:14-15
14I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. 15Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers (Gr. pateras), for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

In this passage, Paul refers to himself as the spiritual father of the Corinthians. This is a terrible precedent to establish if Jesus has prohibited us from using the term “father.”

Ephesians 4:11-13
11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers (Gr. didaskalovs), 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, says that God has established some people as “teachers” in the Church; this appears to be a direct violation of Jesus’ prohibition against calling anyone “teacher”. Does God contradict Himself?

James Violates This Command

James 3:1
1Not many of you should presume to be teachers (Gr. didaskaloi), my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

James, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, says that not many believers should presume to be “teachers.” This implies that a few (though not many) should and would rightfully have that position. Does God contradict Himself?

James 2:21
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, refers to the spiritual fatherhood of Abraham. This is a terrible precedent to establish if Jesus has prohibited us from using the term “father.”

Stephen Violates This Command

Acts 7:2
2To this he replied: "Brothers and fathers, listen to me!

[nateswift]

Originally Posted by Genesis2

Call No Man Your Father

Matthew 23:8-10
8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' (Gr. rabbi) for you have only one Master (Gr. didaskalos, kathegetes) and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' (Gr. patera) for you have one Father (Gr. pater), and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' (Gr. kathegetai) for you have one Teacher (Gr. kathegetes), the Christ.” (NIV)

Matthew 23:8-10
8”But be not ye called Rabbi (Gr. rabbi): for one is your Master (Gr. didaskalos, kathegetes), even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9And call no man your father (Gr. patera) upon the earth: for one is your Father (Gr. pater), which is in heaven. 10Neither be ye called masters (Gr. kathegetai) : for one is your Master (Gr. kathegetes), even Christ.” (KJV)
.............

Stephen Violates This Command

Acts 7:2
2To this he replied: "Brothers and fathers, listen to me!

Please look at the quote and notice the circumstances under which one is not to call another "father." EVERYthing in the verse is about acknowledging someone as in a position of superiority or authority and the titles used were specifically to denote that position. From that standpoint Jesus is saying that we have only one father or teacher. NOW ask yourself how the Catholic Church uses "Father.?

[Submariner]

Originally Posted by nateswift

Please look at the quote and notice the circumstances under which one is not to call another "father." EVERYthing in the verse is about acknowledging someone as in a position of superiority or authority and the titles used were specifically to denote that position. From that standpoint Jesus is saying that we have only one father or teacher. NOW ask yourself how the Catholic Church uses "Father.?

Or any organized denominations use of: Reverend, Pastor, Father.

Jesus is our mediator with God.

All followers are the sons of God, and brothers of Jesus. Within the household of God the only one of us that is exalted in any manner would be Jesus himself.

Any title that exalts one Christian above another is being misapplied.