Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Thank You, you just proved my point. Let's use the above translation of Eph.2:8
"for by grace(feminine) we are saved(masculine) through faith(feminine) ; and not of yourselves: this(neuter singular nominative) gift(neuter) is of God."
What does the demonstrative pronoun point too?
a) grace;
b) faith; or
c) the concept of the resultant of the two - SALVATION.
(SALVATION is the implied or unstated'thing' or result of grace and faith - it it the noun concept that the pronoun points too)
It cannot be grace or faith. (As we have already determined)
The demonstrative pronoun 'that' has to point to a singular'thing'. It cannot be both grace and faith which would require the plural'these' or 'those.'
The demonstrative pronoun 'that' is equal to the 'gift' of God. ('that' = 'gift').
The 'gift' is singular. The 'gift' cannot be both grace and faith which would require the plural'gifts.'
The 'gift' is the resultant of grace and faith - that is SALVATION (regeneration/justification/glorification) or as Rom.6:23 says 'For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.'
Just as 1+2 = 3; so grace + faith = 'that' or 'the gift' or SALVATION or 'eternal life in Christ Jesus.'
This gift is not of works but grace + faith. The passage is not saying that grace and faith are the gift (singular).
This is why Paul always contrasts faith and works because faith is in no way any type of work - it is not in that category.
So when God tells me to have faith and it is in no way a work how dare you rob God of his ordained plan for slavation by grace through faith. If God ordained the means of SALVATION to be through faith who are you to say it robs God of anything or accuse me of earning, adding, or working for my salvation just because I believe or trust in the gospel.
I just take God at His word - which you seem to have a problem with.
See how the truth can be known when we focus. You stumbled onto it without even seeing it.
Perhaps you can tell me which one of you believes what compared to the following.. cuz I got confused... Here's my version-
Ephesians 2:4-10 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
The main subject is God's great love for us and mercy. 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
It was Christ's deed: Total obedience, enormous faith, and full use of the Holy Spirit that caused the grace which leads to salvation (for God to show His great love for us and mercy). 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
God sees Christ when he sees us in heaven... the same us above that are given grace by what Jesus did leading to salvation. 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. The purpose of giving grace with only Christ's deeds (total obedience, enormous faith, and full use of the Holy Spirit) is to show "incomparable riches of his grace" expressed by kindness in Jesus' deeds (total obedience, enormous faith, and full use of the Holy Spirit). 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— You are saved by grace of God (it= main subject) through faith (Jesus' enormous faith) don't forget the main subject is "it" and "this." God's great love and mercy for us is not of us it is a gift of God to us. 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. Remember that you did nothing it was all God. You can only boast that God gave you (and everyone else) the gift of His great love for us and mercy. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
God is the workman.. we are counted as having Christ's deeds (total obedience, enormous faith, and full use of the Holy Spirit) even though we did not do the same deeds... to do good works which was the plan all along. If you are given God's great love for us and mercy.. there is no need to sin.
Last edited by katjonjj; 11-02-2009 at 09:09 PM..
11-02-2009, 09:28 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
Perhaps you can tell me which one of you believes what compared to the following.. cuz I got confused... Here's my version-
Ephesians 2:4-10 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
The main subject is God's great love for us and mercy. 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
It was Christ's deed: Total obedience, enormous faith, and full use of the Holy Spirit that caused the grace which leads to salvation (for God to show His great love for us and mercy). 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
God sees Christ when he sees us in heaven... the same us above that are given grace by what Jesus did leading to salvation. 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. The purpose of giving grace with only Christ's deeds (total obedience, enormous faith, and full use of the Holy Spirit) is to show "incomparable riches of his grace" expressed by kindness in Jesus' deeds (total obedience, enormous faith, and full use of the Holy Spirit). 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— You are saved by grace of God (it= main subject) through faith (Jesus' enormous faith) don't forget the main subject is "it" and "this." God's great love and mercy for us is not of us it is a gift of God to us. 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. Remember that you did nothing it was all God. You can only boast that God gave you (and everyone else) the gift of His great love and mercy for us. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
God is the workman.. we are counted as having Christ's deeds (total obedience, enormous faith, and full use of the Holy Spirit) to do good works which was the plan all along.
We went over this earlier in the thread so that might be why you got confused. There was alot of other posts between these last ones. Paul is just stating the source or basis of our salvation - God's grace without mentioning the means - faith.
Also, I think you would have a hard time supporting thei dea that 'faith' here is the faithfulness of Christ that is in view, not only grammatically, but in Ch.1:12-13, 15 talks of our believing the gospel message of salvation.
The point is that after/simultaneously we believed we were made alive in Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit not before.
I think most that can be said about this verse has been in this thread - maybe a review would be in order instead of going around in circles
Perhaps you can tell me which one of you believes what compared to the following.. cuz I got confused... Here's my version-
Ephesians 2:4-10 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
The main subject is God's great love for us and mercy. 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
It was Christ's deed: Total obedience, enormous faith, and full use of the Holy Spirit that caused the grace which leads to salvation (for God to show His great love for us and mercy). 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
God sees Christ when he sees us in heaven... the same us above that are given grace by what Jesus did leading to salvation. 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. The purpose of giving grace with only Christ's deeds (total obedience, enormous faith, and full use of the Holy Spirit) is to show "incomparable riches of his grace" expressed by kindness in Jesus' deeds (total obedience, enormous faith, and full use of the Holy Spirit). 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— You are saved by grace of God (it= main subject) through faith (Jesus' enormous faith) don't forget the main subject is "it" and "this." God's great love and mercy for us is not of us it is a gift of God to us. 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. Remember that you did nothing it was all God. You can only boast that God gave you (and everyone else) the gift of His great love for us and mercy. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
God is the workman.. we are counted as having Christ's deeds (total obedience, enormous faith, and full use of the Holy Spirit) even though we did not do the same deeds... to do good works which was the plan all along. If you are given God's great love for us and mercy.. there is no need to sin.
Well, the point is that the word "that"(touto), which is the neuter singular nominative pronoun(that is to say it can only point of one of the nouns in the sentence because it is singular, and it must match the gender of the noun to which it points), refers to a noun which is its antecedent within the same sentence. The fact is that the only noun in that sentence which is neuter is the word Gift, or in the Greek dōron.
So the only noun in the sentence to which the pronoun touto can be referring is the word doron ... Thus the gift of God, which is not of ourselves, is both faith and Grace. Faith and Grace are both not of ourselves, but are together a gift from God.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-02-2009 at 09:55 PM..
We went over this earlier in the thread so that might be why you got confused. There was alot of other posts between these last ones. Paul is just stating the source or basis of our salvation - God's grace without mentioning the means - faith.
Also, I think you would have a hard time supporting thei dea that 'faith' here is the faithfulness of Christ that is in view, not only grammatically, but in Ch.1:12-13, 15 talks of our believing the gospel message of salvation.
The point is that after/simultaneously we believed we were made alive in Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit not before.
I think most that can be said about this verse has been in this thread - maybe a review would be in order instead of going around in circles
No, I think I made my point. God provided the grace and Jesus provided the faith and works. You do nothing which is why it is repeated. Grammatically the subject is not us, it is God's love for us and mercy. That is the gift. Grace is mercy+love. Jesus is the one who was faithful and true. We can do nothing in ourselves so we are molded into Christ by God's love for us and mercy which equals grace.
It's grammatically sound in my opinion. The problem is that you are reading into it that the main point of the paragraph is changed midway through.
That is not the case. Do you have the faith necessary for total obedience, and full use of the Holy Spirit? I am one of those "ye of little faith" guys spoken of in the bible. So it has to be Jesus' or we would have done something when it clearly states twice that it is not of us. If left to our own faith we fail because our faith is less than Jesus' ... So God imputes Jesus' faith onto us lest we can boast that it is our faith.
Well, the point is that the word "that"(touto), which is the neuter singular nominative pronoun(that is to say it can only point of one of the nouns in the sentence because it is singular, and it must match the gender of the noun to which it points), refers to a noun which is its antecedent within the same sentence. The fact is that the only noun in that sentence which is neuter is the word Gift, or in the Greek dōron.
So the only noun in the sentence to which the pronoun touto can be referring is the word doron ... So the gift of God, which is not of yourself is both faith and Grace. Faith and Grace are both not of ourselves, but are together a gift from God.
Yes and the gift of God (God's love for us and mercy) is grace. Faith and works are from Jesus which in turn were given to him by God. None of which is of ourselves. The gift is the main subject and follows the main point.... That the grace of God (his love and mercy) "show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus."
The riches of grace come from the God seeing the total obedience, enormous faith, and fullness of the Spirit of Christ instead of our lack of obedience, weak faith, and less than fullness of the Holy Spirit. And these riches are incomparable.
You can believe you are under grace and live like it; or you can pretend you are not under grace.. that is your only choice as grace and faith were given already.
We went over this earlier in the thread so that might be why you got confused. There was alot of other posts between these last ones. Paul is just stating the source or basis of our salvation - God's grace without mentioning the means - faith.
Also, I think you would have a hard time supporting thei dea that 'faith' here is the faithfulness of Christ that is in view, not only grammatically, but in Ch.1:12-13, 15 talks of our believing the gospel message of salvation.
The point is that after/simultaneously we believed we were made alive in Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit not before.
I think most that can be said about this verse has been in this thread - maybe a review would be in order instead of going around in circles
You said ...
Quote:
The point is that after/simultaneously we believed we were made alive in Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit not before.
And this is obviously not the case knowing that faith is a fruit of the spirit, and not the other way around. The spirit is no a fruit of faith. You cannot have the fruits of the spirit until you have been quickened by the spirit, and then you can believe/have faith, and only then. You argument simply falls flat considering this evidence.
11-02-2009, 10:11 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Well, the point is that the word "that"(touto), which is the neuter singular nominative pronoun(that is to say it can only point of one of the nouns in the sentence because it is singular, and it must match the gender of the noun to which it points), refers to a noun which is its antecedent within the same sentence. The fact is that the only noun in that sentence which is neuter is the word Gift, or in the Greek dōron.
So the only noun in the sentence to which the pronoun touto can be referring is the word doron ... Thus the gift of God, which is not of ourselves, is both faith and Grace. Faith and Grace are both not of ourselves, but are together a gift from God.
Now both of you guys are just digging yourselves into a deper hole. This is not just my opinion as it is yours. I gave you two objective scholarly references.
How is the gift of God (singular ) both grace and faith ( 2 things - plural)
I used your translation as the rope to hang yourself with and you both are just blindly patting yourselves on the back - it is quite sad at this point now that you have been shown to be wrong.
Here are the options from the literature.
The standard interpretations include: (1) “grace” as antecedent, (2) “faith as antecedent, (3) the concept of a grace-by-faith salvation as antecedent, and (4) kai touto having an adverbial force with no antecedent (“and especially”).
More plausible is the third view, viz., that touto refers to the concept of a grace-by-faith salvation. As we have seen, touto regularly takes a conceptual antecedent. Whether faith is seen as gift here or anywhere else in the NT is not addressed by this.[iv]
I do not see your interpretation.
Regarding faith as a work:
[iv][On an exegetical level, I am inclined to agree with Lincoln that “in Paul’s thinking faith can never be viewed as a meritorious work because in connection with justification he always contrast faith and works of the law (cf. Gal 2:16; 3:2-5, 9, 10; Rom 3:27-28)” (A.T. Lincoln, Ephesians [WBC] 111). If faith is not meritorious, but is instead the reception of the gift of salvation,then it is not a gift per se. Such a view does not preclude the notion that for faith to save, the Spirit of God must initiate the conversion process.
Also kai touto go together - that is 'and this' not kai ouk - that is 'and not.'
[vii] For what it is worth, an examination of all 22 instances of kai touto in the NT (not counting Eph 2:8) yield the following results: 14 or 15 had a conceptual referent (e.g., Luke 3:20; 5:6; John 11:28; 18:38; 20:20; Acts 7:60; 1Cor 7:37; Phil 1:9; Heb 6:3 [Phil 1:28 was probable]); four were adverbial (Rom 13:11; 1 Cor 6:6; 8; 3 John 5 [Heb 11:12 is listed by BAGD as adverbial, but the plural is used (kai tauta), following more closely the Attic idiom]); three involved the same gender (Luke 2:12; 13:8; 1 John 4:3); no clear examples involved different genders (though Phil 1:28 was possible).
Now notice that this doves tails with option number 3.
You guys are completely intellectually dishonest and spiritually blind yourselves by not submitting to the truth esp. after you have been shown to error in your interpretations.
11-02-2009, 10:17 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
You said ...
And this is obviously not the case knowing that faith is a fruit of the spirit, and not the other way around. The spirit is no a fruit of faith. You cannot have the fruits of the spirit until you have been quickened by the spirit, and then you can believe/have faith, and only then. You argument simply falls flat considering this evidence.
Excuse me, but we all ready dealt with Galatians 5:22 - go reread the post. stop wondering off topic.
Now both of you guys are just digging yourselves into a deper hole. This is not just my opinion as it is yours. I gave you two objective scholarly references.
How is the gift of God (singular ) both grace and faith ( 2 things - plural)
I used your translation as the rope to hang yourself with and you both are just blindly patting yourselves on the back - it is quite sad at this point now that you have been shown to be wrong.
Here are the options from the literature.
The standard interpretations include: (1) “grace” as antecedent, (2) “faith as antecedent, (3) the concept of a grace-by-faith salvation as antecedent, and (4) kai touto having an adverbial force with no antecedent (“and especially”).
More plausible is the third view, viz., that touto refers to the concept of a grace-by-faith salvation. As we have seen, touto regularly takes a conceptual antecedent. Whether faith is seen as gift here or anywhere else in the NT is not addressed by this.[iv]
I do not see your interpretation.
Regarding faith as a work:
[iv][On an exegetical level, I am inclined to agree with Lincoln that “in Paul’s thinking faith can never be viewed as a meritorious work because in connection with justification he always contrast faith and works of the law (cf. Gal 2:16; 3:2-5, 9, 10; Rom 3:27-28)” (A.T. Lincoln, Ephesians [WBC] 111). If faith is not meritorious, but is instead the reception of the gift of salvation,then it is not a gift per se. Such a view does not preclude the notion that for faith to save, the Spirit of God must initiate the conversion process.
Also kai touto go together - that is 'and this' not kai ouk - that is 'and not.'
[vii] For what it is worth, an examination of all 22 instances of kai touto in the NT (not counting Eph 2:8) yield the following results: 14 or 15 had a conceptual referent (e.g., Luke 3:20; 5:6; John 11:28; 18:38; 20:20; Acts 7:60; 1Cor 7:37; Phil 1:9; Heb 6:3 [Phil 1:28 was probable]); four were adverbial (Rom 13:11; 1 Cor 6:6; 8; 3 John 5 [Heb 11:12 is listed by BAGD as adverbial, but the plural is used (kai tauta), following more closely the Attic idiom]); three involved the same gender (Luke 2:12; 13:8; 1 John 4:3); no clear examples involved different genders (though Phil 1:28 was possible).
Your argument is circular. Salvation is by grace through faith. Both grace and faith make salvation and salvation is a gift. Not part of salvation is not a gift.
Now notice that this doves tails with option number 3.
You guys are completely intellectually dishonest and spiritually blind yourselves by not submitting to the truth esp. after you have been shown to error in your interpretations.
We will have to agree to disagree. Your Scholarly opinions don't mean anything to me, as i said the noun "Gift" (doron) is a neuter noun ... So the word doron must be the antecedent, you keep dodging this interpretation.
"It is" doesn't appear in the original Greek ...
Youngs literal ...
for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,
What is the gift of God? Salvation ... And how are we saved? By grace through faith. So grace and faith are together salvation, and salvation is a gift. So both faith and grace are together(salvation) the gift of God.
Your dancing around this interpretation.
As far as faith being the fruit of the spirit ... I didn't see a post where you explain how you can have faith which is a fruit of the spirit before you are quickened by the spirit. What post are you referring to?
The fact is the bible says that we cannot boast of any part of our salvation. Yet you are saying that we can boast of our faith. As if faith were of our sinful selves and not a part of the gift of salvation. Are you not boasting that you had faith? Are you not saying that faith is not a gift? So if faith is not a gift, then it is of yourself and you can boast about it. Like your so wise or somehow so much smarter than others or better somehow that you do believe of yourself while they don't.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-02-2009 at 10:50 PM..
No He is creating perfection. You stepping in the middle of the act and proclaiming what is incomplete as being perfect.. If Adam was perfect then he would have been the firstborn and what is perfect is unable to become imperfect. Does this really elude your knowledge Mike? Is this really so hard for you to see? What is perfect is immortal!!!!! Do you realize that immortality means that you cannot become mortalized? Does that not gain any traction in your mind?
In the same way that Lucifer was created perfect and then by his own volition, rebelled against God, so too did Adam, who was created perfect, disobey God.
Ezekiel 28:14 ''Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth, and I have set thee so; thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
As Lucifer lost his perfection by an act of rebellion against God, Adam likewise lost his perfection when he disobeyed God.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
