Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Ask yourself, Mike, if the word is unclear in its meaning, why would it be chosen over the one that is clear??? Why would YOU choose to accept the one meaning that casts the love and character of God in such an evil light? Can you really imagine a just reason for eternally tormenting anyone especially if it is supposed to correct them???How would that work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
The word (aionios) is not unclear in its meaning. Its meaning has been clearly explained, and it is the word most used in the New Testament to express unending duration. The only people who have a problem with it are people who over emphasize God's love at the expense of His righteousness and justice.
Eternal condemnation does not cast God's character in an evil light. God's perfect character is displayed both in saving those who avail themselves of His plan of salvation, and in leaving under condemnation those who reject His plan of salvation.
<Snip>
Yes, God's perfect character is displayed to all of creation both in saving those who come to Him through Christ Jesus, and leaving under condemnation all who do not.
::Sigh:: Hopeless. I weep for all those trapped in unreasoning credulity for fear of offending God. It is so unnecessary!!
The words endless torment (adialeipton timorion), eternal imprisonment (aidios eirgmos) and eternal punishment (aidios kalasin) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, at least not in conjunction. Neither, will you find the term aidios timorion or eternal torment. Therefore, whoever says that there is an eternal time set for punishment beyond this life is sadly mistaken. It's a limited duration of aionion (αἰώνιον - a period of time, as in an age) kalasin (Κόλασιν - punishment, chastisement or correction) which is in view; but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable. If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used. But not even Jesus used the word for eternal in conjunction with any kind of punishment or correction.
I call that problematic, even if others do not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Once again, as was shown in post #462, and is clearly shown in BDAG, the Greek word aionios has a range of meaning which includes endless duration. The Greek has more than one word to express endless duration. Both aidios and aionios can be used which makes the claim that Jesus would have used aidios had He meant endless duration empty speculation.
I never assume anything, so you go right on following the school in Carthage, which includes Rome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Ask yourself, Mike, if the word is unclear in its meaning, why would it be chosen over the one that is clear??? Why would YOU choose to accept the one meaning that casts the love and character of God in such an evil light? Can you really imagine a just reason for eternally tormenting anyone especially if it is supposed to correct them??? How would that work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMusic
I do too (find it problematic). And it has divided many Christian families and households. And will continue to do so. To believe in eternal torment is, as I have said many times, blasphemous on its very face. To demand others believe it (or otherwise claim they are outside the grace of God) is very problematic. I would not accept this doctrine even in the face of losing my earthly life at the hands of those who would persecute me because it would be like denying Christ.
It's an evil doctrine that denies the love of God.
Truly it is, especially to those who rely on gay pagan philosophers of half a millenium before the NT was even written. Who use it in a sense it was never once used in the sacred scriptures. So why do lexicons such as those you referred to even mention it?
Here is what Jesus said of some who believed in Him:
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8)
54When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do You want us to call down fire from heaven to consume them?” 55. But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."(Luke 9)
Ask yourself, Mike, if the word is unclear in its meaning, why would it be chosen over the one that is clear??? Why would YOU choose to accept the one meaning that casts the love and character of God in such an evil light? Can you really imagine a just reason for eternally tormenting anyone especially if it is supposed to correct them???How would that work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
The word (aionios) is not unclear in its meaning. Its meaning has been clearly explained, and it is the word most used in the New Testament to express unending duration. The only people who have a problem with it are people who over emphasize God's love at the expense of His righteousness and justice.
Eternal condemnation does not cast God's character in an evil light. God's perfect character is displayed both in saving those who avail themselves of His plan of salvation, and in leaving under condemnation those who reject His plan of salvation.
The imperfect and relative righteousness of fallen mankind has no compatibility with the perfect and absolute righteousness of God and therefore fallen mankind has no basis for having an eternal relationship with God. While man was created in an unfallen state, sin changed that and caused the fall. Once having fallen, man's righteousness was no longer compatible with God's perfect standard of righteousness. Since fallen mankind can do nothing to change his fallen state he remains under condemnation forever unless God does something to remedy the situation.
And God did do something to remedy the situation. One of the Persons of the Trinity became incarnate as a sinless man and went to the cross where He paid the penalty for our sins, as our substitute, in our place so that anyone who believes on Him is credited with the perfect righteousness of Jesus and receives eternal life.
While Jesus died for the sins of the world (unlimited atonement), no one is automatically saved. God requires an acknowledgement on the part of man that he can do nothing for his salvation and that he must rely on the finished redemptive work of Christ on the cross in order to be credited with Christ's perfect righteousness and receive eternal life.
Anyone who dies without having received Jesus as Savior, will when he appears at the great white throne judgment have only his own imperfect and relative righteousness to stand on, and it won't be good enough. He will be sent to the lake of fire where he will remain in a state of separation from God. And since his imperfect righteousness will always be imperfect, he will remain separated from God forever.
Yes, God's perfect character is displayed to all of creation both in saving those who come to Him through Christ Jesus, and leaving under condemnation all who do not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
::Sigh:: Hopeless. I weep for all those trapped in unreasoning credulity for fear of offending God. It is so unnecessary!!
Weep for yourself. I'm not the one who is trapped in false beliefs. I'm not the one who rejects the apostolic teachings of the men who actually knew Jesus and who Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would guide them unto all the truth (John 16:13).
Eternal condemnation is clearly taught in the New Testament Scriptures. Denying it won't make it go away.
Truly it is, especially to those who rely on gay pagan philosophers of half a millenium before the NT was even written. Who use it in a sense it was never once used in the sacred scriptures. So why do lexicons such as those you referred to even mention it?
Here is what Jesus said of some who believed in Him:
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8)
54When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do You want us to call down fire from heaven to consume them?” 55. But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."(Luke 9)
Truly it is, especially to those who rely on gay pagan philosophers of half a millenium before the NT was even written. Who use it in a sense it was never once used in the sacred scriptures. So why do lexicons such as those you referred to even mention it?
Here is what Jesus said of some who believed in Him:
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8)
54When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do You want us to call down fire from heaven to consume them?” 55. But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."(Luke 9)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Amen!!!
The bolded part, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." isn't even in the better manuscripts.
The better manuscripts simply say that Jesus rebuked them and they went to another village.
You're giving him the thumbs up for posting something that Jesus may not have even said on that occasion.
The bolded part, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." isn't even in the better manuscripts.
The better manuscripts simply say that Jesus rebuked them and they went to another village.
You're giving him the thumbs up for posting something that Jesus may not have even said on that occasion.
I know that you think that might invalidate the verse, but since it is entirely consistent with and compatible with the Holy Spirit of agape love (Who IS God), it passes the truth test. Many of the verses and interpretations you and your mentors rely on do NOT.
I know that you think that might invalidate the verse, but since it is entirely consistent with and compatible with the Holy Spirit of agape love (Who IS God), it passes the truth test. Many of the verses and interpretations you and your mentors rely on do NOT.
Are you seriously so equivically bruised and miss shapened by a man that whs it is Holy and true . Would you be like a man that washes his hands to clear his conscience an say. "What is truth", Denial of sin leads many away. Instead of facing the pain you youself hold back from carrying a cross.
The bolded part, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." isn't even in the better manuscripts.
The better manuscripts simply say that Jesus rebuked them and they went to another village.
You're giving him the thumbs up for posting something that Jesus may not have even said on that occasion.
From what I know of the church fathers, they are not people I would put any trust in.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
