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No you misunderstood. It does not mean "forever" or "everlasting" or "without end". What I agreed to is that aionion means the same thing throughout the two verses you quoted. I already stated that it is not describing a specific duration either finite or infinite in any of those verses.
Words do not mean "everlasting" in one sentence and "not everlasting" in another sentence in any language. Such an adjectvie would be utterly useless. I've already shown you passages where it can not mean "everlasting" so you should know why I do not believe it means "everlasting".
If like you say, the word does not mean everlasting, I’m curious as to how you explain to other believers how these verses are not talking about eternal life.
I’m pretty sure once we get to heaven, it’s going to last forever.
If these verses are not talking about eternal life… where are the verses that do talk about eternal life?
1. John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.
2. John 20:28, "and I give eternal (aionion) life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."
3. Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as ma ny as had been appointed to eternal (aionion) life believed."
4. Romans 2:7, " to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal (aionion) life."
5. Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
6. Rom. 16:26, " but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionion) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith."
7. Gal. 6:8, "For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal (aionion) life."
8. 1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen."
9. 1 John 1:2, "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal (aionion) life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us"
10. 1 John 5:11, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal (aionion) life, and this life is in His Son."
Matthew 5:48 'Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.'
No part of the Bible contradicts another. A failure to understand a passage causes some to allege contradictions.
Men are not literally the children of God. Believers are adopted into the family of God at the moment of faith in Christ.
Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Refer to the above. You still fail to distinquish between salvation through faith alone, and the spiritual life of the believer after salvation. Entitlement has nothing to do with anything. God does not accept human good. Period. If you are not capable of understanding what I am saying then do some research on it.
Yes! Great post (had to shorten it due to lenght)
Matthew 5:48 'Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.'
Those who seek to please Heavenly Father any other way outside of faith are condemned already. Jesus' command is to be perfect, just as it was to OT Israel to be holy.
To become acceptable to a perfect Heavenly Father in the OT required a substitute ... a perfect spotless lamb. A lamb whose blood was shed for the sins of the entire household. By this they were now holy before a perfect God. But a sacrificed animal wasn't enough, God wasn't pleased because animal blood didn't take away sin.
Hebrews 10:8
First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made).
Hebrews 10:11
Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
The perfect lamb was but a symbol in the OT ........Jesus is the subsitute, not our example to follow.
Hebrews 10:14
because by one sacrifice he [Jesus] has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Hebrews 10:10
And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrificeof the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Perfection is only obtainable by faith. Sola fida!
It's too bad Mike that so many will fall into hell (outer darkness for Mormons) simply because of the refusal to believe what was\is so plain set before them in the Bible. But that must be the nature of a rebellious mind that listens not to God but to Satan.
Hebrews 12:14
[ Warning Against Refusing God ] Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
Last edited by twin.spin; 12-05-2009 at 08:26 AM..
If like you say, the word does not mean everlasting, I’m curious as to how you explain to other believers how these verses are not talking about eternal life.
I’m pretty sure once we get to heaven, it’s going to last forever.
Again, just because we will in fact live forever with Christ that does not mean that the adjective aionion is specifically referring ot the duration of life with Christ. Jesus defined aionion life not in terms of duration but in terms of knowing Christ and knowing the Father and being in Christ and in the Father.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent
1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
ET says that unbelievers will live forever in hell. So the duration of their life is forever. But we all agree that would not be not aionion life. Why? Because aionion life is not determined by duration.
Quote:
If these verses are not talking about eternal life… where are the verses that do talk about eternal life?
Believers will never die.
1 Corinthinas 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
There will be no more death
1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away
We will always be with the Lord
1 Thessoninas 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The word "ever" there is pantote which means "at all times"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But the bottom line is this not really about aionion life. We all agree that anyone inheriting aionion life will live forever with Christ. It's about aionion punishment/contempt/shame/consequences that sin brings. No amount of reasoning will remove the counter examples in scripture of temporary sin-consequences that are called aionion and owlam.
Isaiah 32:12 They shall lament for the teats, for the pleasant fields, for the fruitful vine. 13 Upon the land of my people shall come up thorns and briers; yea, upon all the houses of joy in the joyous city: 14 Because the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens for ever, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks; 15 Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
Now if owlam had been translated "through the ages" or something along those lines, it would make more sense wouldn't it? As translated it's contradictory.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
According to your CARM quote, two instnaces of a word in the same sentence must have the same meaning (which is usually true). Then this verse proves God will save all, since all God's enemies will be subject to Christ just as Christ is subject to the Father.
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Saint Gregory of Nyssa argues just that here in his treatise on this verse.
"The exposition of the term 'subjection' as used here does not mean the forceful, necessary subjection of enemies as is commonly meant; while on the other hand, salvation is clearly interpreted by subjection."
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 12-05-2009 at 08:56 AM..
Following the law, works, is not enough in itself. Faith in Jesus Christ and the saving power of his atoning sacrifice are also vital ingredients in the process of salvation. Those who haven't had their minds closed and been deceived and deeply lulled into carnal security thinking they've already got it made and are saved forever regardless of what they do are aware of that because the necessity of keeping God's commandments and doing good to others and enduring to the end in that is all over the bible.
Paul is writing to Jewish converts to Christianity. Prior to their conversion they felt bound by tradition to the rigid requirements of the lesser law. That lesser law came as you may recall in the time of Moses when the Jews had been so disobedient and sinful, even making and worshiping a golden calf, that God through Moses gave them the 'eye for an eye tooth for a tooth law' to be a "schoolmaster" for their preparation for advancement to the gentler and higher law of faith in Jesus Christ and charity/love for all.
Works were totally emphasized under that lesser law. (Though there were elements of faith introduced, such as the fiery flying serpents and the cure for a bite. All the victim had to do to be healed was to exercise enough faith to look up at the brazen image of a snake that Moses had raised like a flagpole in their midst. It's reported that many did not even have enough faith to do that simple thing, and died of the snake poison.)
That lesser law of works was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. But the habits remained to be struggled with by that first generation of Jewish converts to Christ, and thus Paul's frequent admonitions to them to leave that lesser law behind and move towards belief/faith in Jesus Christ.
Paul was pointing out to the Galatian saints that the lesser law was fulfilled in Jesus Christ and they were no longer bound to such things as literal circumcision, not making fire on the Sabaath, etc. etc. etc. Over the centuries scholars and lawyers, as they and bureaucrats do today, had added myriad strict regulations to the original lesser law Moses gave the Jews. (To this day you can't ride a hotel elevator in Jerusalem on the Sabaath without having to automatically stop at every floor, because to push an elevator button is to create a fire!)
But fulfilment of the rigid lesser law that the Galatians were still struggling to give up and Paul was helping them with the problem did not mean that works were no longer important or that the ten commandments were not still in force. With the coming of Jesus, the old law of literal circumcision had now become for his followers a circumcision of the heart and mind. To do not commit adultery for example, was added the new law of don't even THINK of committing adultery!
Eye for an eye was replaced with turn the other check and love thy neighbor as thyself. Also included with faith in Jesus Christ were his lifestyle teachings given in his sermon on the mount and over his entire three year ministry. Works remained extremely important for the Galatians, it's just that those works were now different and faith in Jesus Christ was added to the equation for working out one's salvation with fear and trembling.
19 Wherefore then serveththe law? (Meaning the old lesser law.) It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmasterto bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (the old lesser law)
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3: 19,21,23-25,27
In our time, faith in Jesus Christ, his grace, good works, and ordinances are all very important for us to be fully aware of and in conformity with. In my opinion, to ignore any of those elements is risky for those who look to live with God and his Saints forever. Your choice, follow Mike and the pastors and scholars who invented and aggressively promote OSAS, or follow Jesus Christ...
How they are different is that the universalist understands that nothing is done by the saved and all is completed by the savior.
Rom. 4:4-5
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
So when you are paid for working it is not a gift. If you trust God but do no work your faith is credited to you as righteousness.
Then Paul goes on to say that blessed are those whose sin is not counted against them.
Romans 4: 9-10
Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!
The righteousness is credited before the circumcision!
Deut. 30:6
The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
So your righteousness is credited before the circumcision and God will credit you and circumcise your heart so you may love him and LIVE (be saved, right?)
What is it then that you must do?
Well Israel had a hard time with this:
Rom. 9:32
Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."
So Paul says of Israel:
Romans 11:11
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
They stumbled but can recover and because they stumbled salvation (righteousness) has come to all those not Jews (uncircumcised) as well as those who are Jews (circumcised).
Therefore God gave freely his gift of righteousness (salvation) to all, and it is given before you can believe or have faith or do works. Not only that but God will circumcise your heart. He will draw you to him.
We can do nothing, but where exactly do works come into play...
Eph 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-
Grace means pardon. God's gift of righteousness, salvation, and grace is not a choice it is given freely and he will do the work to draw all men unto him.
Psalm 66:5
Come and see what God has done, how awesome his works in man's behalf!
1 Cr. 12:6
There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
So sit back and enjoy the good news because your motivation for being righteous is that God has done an awesome thing for all who don't deserve it.
So then what I see is that there is nothing required for salvation.. it is a gift given by God. If nothing can be done to obtain salvation then there is also nothing that can be done to lose salvation.
Remember that when the disciples established a church they spoke to the leaders of the church in letters. So it is the leaders that needed to be without stain so they could lead others.
Phil. 2:14-15 Do everything without complaining or arguing,so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe.
Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have acted corruptly toward Him, They are not His children, because of their defect; But are a perverse and crooked generation."
This was a transition period (generation) between the Old Covenant fading away and the New Covenant being affirmed. Therefore the standards were higher for those during that time and that is why they do those things to be saved from that perverse generation.. but that should not be confused with salvation by grace of God for eternal life.
Again, just because we will in fact live forever with Christ that does not mean that the adjective aionion is specifically referring ot the duration of life with Christ...
...But the bottom line is this not really about aionion life. We all agree that anyone inheriting aionion life will live forever with Christ. It's about aionion punishment/contempt/shame/consequences that sin brings. No amount of reasoning will remove the counter examples in scripture of temporary sin-consequences that are called aionion and owlam.
I still say you are wrong in your belief.
These Scriptures show that there is “eternal” (aionion) life.
1. John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.
2. John 20:28, "and I give eternal (aionion) life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."
3. Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as ma ny as had been appointed to eternal (aionion) life believed."
4. Romans 2:7, " to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal (aionion) life."
5. Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
6. Rom. 16:26, " but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionion) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith."
7. Gal. 6:8, "For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal (aionion) life."
8. 1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen."
9. 1 John 1:2, "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal (aionion) life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us"
10. 1 John 5:11, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal (aionion) life, and this life is in His Son."
And these Scriptures show there is “eternal” (aionion) damnation.
1. Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal (aionion) fire.
2. Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"
3. Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life."
4. Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal (aionion) sin."
5. Mark 10:30, "but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life.
6. Luke 18:30, "who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life."
7. 2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glo ry of His power,"
8. Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal (aionion) fire."
I think I hear what you have to say Mike and Joyce Meyer, Chuck Smith and many prominent preachers/teachers of the Word would agree but I think I also know why some of these people on this thread have a problem with your definition. You kind of come across as being too gracious and not balancing this belief off with the other aspects of Eternal Security. Please excuse me if I missed one of your posts.
First of all, I believe that if a believer is TRULY saved and their heart (mind) belongs to Christ then that person cannot lose Salvation because once he/she has tasted the Rhema Word (living Truth) that person will never want to return to the world. For instance for me I have been touched by the Spirit of God, I have had many prayers answered, God has interpreted dreams through me and His Glory has been revealed to me in many ways (Praise be to God). There is nothing on earth that could ever take the place or come close to what I have experienced as a TRUE believer because I have tasted what is good. So the bible tells us that we are sealed by the Spirit and that our Salvation is Secure if we are TRULY HIS. In other words I wouldn't feel comfortable commiting sins over and over again because I believe I won't lose my salvation. I don't want to sin because it grieves the Spirit that God has given me. I don't feel right with God or myself for that matter when I grieve Him. Do I sin? Yes of course. The Word says that we have ALL sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. But do I continually sin and never ask for forgiveness? No.. because I don't want to be separated from God and everytime I sin it separates me from fellowship with Him. It won't keep me out of heaven but it will prevent me from blessings, peace and fellowship with God on this earth. And then I become uneffective which is not His will for us. He wants to use us. I beleive there are those who are TRULY saved but their lives on this earth are not the lives that God wants for them because they never fully give themselves to God. What a miserable existance. Hopefully you are understanding what I am trying to say.
For those who aren't TRULY saved (which by the way I think there are many) the Eternal Security issue doesn't apply anyway because they aren't really legitimate children but they are lying to themselves. The Bible says "by their fruit you will know them". In other words if there is no evidence of a Christian walk (not perfection but a striving or working towards knowing and behaving as a Christian) then certainly you have to question a person's salvation. But then again only God knows the heart of men and all we can do is pray for people and witness, share and rebuke in love if something is not right or we see sin that is blatantly unconfessed.. It is the Holy Spirit's job to convict and Save not ours.
Sorry if I seem off track but I guess I can see where this thread has come to disagreements. We need to be sure we are balanced in our discussions and it is sometimes hard to do that in written words. I think on this subject we can be too legalistic or too gracious and God is both. He is balanced... a gracious, loving God and a God of judgement also.. Heaven will be without sin and the intentions and hearts will be tried and they are known by God. We all need to make sure that we ask God to reveal anything in our heart that needs to be confessed and changed and allow the Truth to change us and expose those places that blind us. Bottom line.. if we are truly saved and working towards God's Will in our lives we will not have to worry about anything...right?
I love you all and pray that we would truly unite in the Spirit of Truth... Life is way too short and we need each other...
Well, a true believer is someone who has believed in Christ for salvation. Now what does 'believe' mean? It means that on hearing and understanding the Gospel, understanding that the issue in salvation is that man can not save himself by his own efforts, but can only be saved as a result of relying on the finished work of Christ on the Cross, which of course includes His resurrection, that you accept that fact. Believing in Christ means that you are relying on, depending on, confident in the fact that the work of Christ on the cross is what secures your salvation. And it means that you want to have a relationship with God and are coming to God through Christ.
Believing in Christ does not simply mean that you know that He went to the Cross and died for you, without really understanding what is involved. If a person hears the Gospel and does something like inviting Christ into his heart and thinks he still has to do works of some sort, like being baptized or joining a church, or making a public confession, or giving up something, that person has not believed in Christ for salvation and is not saved. Or again, if a person understands that Christ died for him, but his attitude is ''so what,'' then obviously that person is not saved. To be saved requires a complete absence of works on your part, and a complete reliance on the work of Christ on your behalf.
A person can be a believer and can advance to some level of spiritual growth, and can then for what ever reason, do a complete 180 degree turn around and rebel against God and lose faith in God and can start sinning until the cows come home, and he is still saved. He cannot lose his salvation.
Solomon for a large part of his adult life turned away from God and pursued all the human ways of trying to find happiness. He later turned back to God, but during that time in his life when he had set God aside, he did not lose his salvation. He only came under divine discipline.
A person can truly believe in Christ, and then for whatever reason decide that he no longer believes in Christ, and die in that state of unbelief. But because he at one point in his life did believe in Christ, he is still saved. Once you are born into the family of God, you remain in the family of God. He does not cast you out. Whatever you as a believer do in disobedience to God, is handled as a family matter. Hebrews 12:6 ''For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives.''
There is no such thing in being overly gracious when it is God's grace that is being referred to. It is one hundred percent by the grace of God that we are initially saved, and it is one hundred percent by the grace of God that our salvation is maintained by God. Now, having said that, God does require that one initial act of faith in Christ for salvation. But the Bible makes it clear that faith is not a work as some people erroneously claim.
Eph 2:8,9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift from God, 9) not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
A human father may disown his son for some reason, but the believers heavenly Father will never disown him for any reason. For such is the nature of God.
Now as a believer, you should absolutely desire to grow up spiritually. A believer should want to pick up his cross and follow Jesus. That is why God leaves us on this earth after salvation. Most believers don't grow up. Most believers depart from this life without ever having learned very much about God and His plan for man. And they will lose out on the eternal rewards that they otherwise would have had. But they are still saved. They will still be in the presence of the Lord forever. And they will be happy.
I still say you are wrong in your belief.
These Scriptures show that there is “eternal” (aionion) life.
1. John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.
2. John 20:28, "and I give eternal (aionion) life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."
3. Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as ma ny as had been appointed to eternal (aionion) life believed."
4. Romans 2:7, " to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal (aionion) life."
5. Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
6. Rom. 16:26, " but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionion) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith."
7. Gal. 6:8, "For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal (aionion) life."
8. 1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen."
9. 1 John 1:2, "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal (aionion) life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us"
10. 1 John 5:11, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal (aionion) life, and this life is in His Son."
And these Scriptures show there is “eternal” (aionion) damnation.
1. Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal (aionion) fire.
2. Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"
3. Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life."
4. Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal (aionion) sin."
5. Mark 10:30, "but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life.
6. Luke 18:30, "who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life."
7. 2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glo ry of His power,"
8. Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal (aionion) fire."
The same word… same meaning. Eternal is eternal.
May God bless you more than me.
I think what you are missing is the bible's own explanation of eternal life:
John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
1 John 5:20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
Knowing God is eternal life. God is the only thing that is ever truly eternal as everything else is corruptible including life. Because life ends in death it cannot be truly eternal. So we have to look at the scriptures definition of eternal life which is to know God.
When you know God your life is better for it. When you know God your death is not a concern because you live in God.
Being so dogmatic about the word eternal is not necessary because as you can see it is a life (not even talking about after death) of knowing God. So when you then apply that definition to eternal damnation, you can safely say that a person not knowing God would live in damnation.
Again eternal life has to do with living not after death as is clear in scripture and eternal fire/damnation also has to do with life not after death.
I think what you are missing is the bible's own explanation of eternal life:
John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
1 John 5:20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
Knowing God is eternal life. God is the only thing that is ever truly eternal as everything else is corruptible including life. Because life ends in death it cannot be truly eternal. So we have to look at the scriptures definition of eternal life which is to know God.
When you know God your life is better for it. When you know God your death is not a concern because you live in God.
Being so dogmatic about the word eternal is not necessary because as you can see it is a life (not even talking about after death) of knowing God. So when you then apply that definition to eternal damnation, you can safely say that a person not knowing God would live in damnation.
Again eternal life has to do with living not after death as is clear in scripture and eternal fire/damnation also has to do with life not after death.
But most people know that life here on earth is not eternal.
Life in heaven is eternal.
When the Bible talks about "eternal" life, it can't be talking about life here on earth.
The word "eternal" has everything to do about after death.
But most people know that life here on earth is not eternal.
Life in heaven is eternal.
When the Bible talks about "eternal" life, it can't be talking about life here on earth.
The word "eternal" has everything to do about after death.
Yet that is not what the bible says. It clearly states that eternal life is to know God. When you are dead you no longer live so how can you say that eternal life is after death?
Jesus is asked about marriage after death and it is clearly stated that there is not marriage after death because:
Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!" (also repeated in Luke 20, and Matt. 22)
So it is while we live that we know God and reap the benefits of eternal life (knowing God) for after death there is no need to know God as we will be with him. Right? So the scripture is talking about eternal life as knowing God while you live. What is the point of knowing God when you are dead? That really doesn't help you to live in the world if you only know God after death... does that make sense?
When the Bible talks about "eternal" life, it can't be talking about life here on earth.
1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed[past tense] from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath [present tense] eternal life abiding in him.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know [present tense] that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath [present tense] everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath [present tense] everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is [present tense] passed from death unto life.
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Great post (had to shorten it due to lenght)
