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Old 12-26-2009, 09:56 PM
 
187 posts, read 251,013 times
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The really bad thing about futurism is that it takes the meaning of simple words like soon, near, at hand, and about to take place and makes them mean something like 2000+ years. Even though every other place these words are used that aren't directly tied to eschatology they mean just what they say.

Example #1 Matthew 26:46 "Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is at hand.

And the very next verse tells us how to understand what is meant by "at hand."

Matthew 26:47 And while He was still speaking, behold, Judas, one of the twelve, with a great multitude with swords and clubs, came from the chief priests and elders of the people.

Example #2 2 Timothy 4:6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand.

also

2 Timothy 4:9 Be diligent to come to me quickly.

Of course the futurist would tell anyone, "Yes...Paul's death was at hand...And yes...He really did want Timothy to come to him quickly because of his impending death."

Yet with no scriptural basis they tell us that any time soon, near, and at hand are used regarding eschatology these terms don't carry the normative meaning. That soon, near, and at hand could likely mean thousands of years. Well this is an absurd conclusion that even a child wouldn't be fooled by. So what did they do? They conjured up the doctrine of imminency. Something found nowhere in scripture.

They tell us that God was simply trying to convey the idea that Jesus' return could have happened at any moment in time over the last 2000 years. Well then why didn't God in all of His infinite wisdom say just that?

Then they proceed to tell us that 1948 was the "Supersign" of the end times.

HuH???

Just the fact that 1948 had to happen before the end could come completely destroys their own doctrine of imminency. If Israel becoming a nation again was necessary then there is just no way that Jesus' return could have been imminent for 1900+ years.

Jesus and the authors of the New Testament all said that Jesus' return was something that was soon, near, at hand, and about to take place. However the futurist comes back with Jesus own words in Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

Ok...The futurist has us there. But wait!!!

Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place."

So what can the futurist do with Revelation 1:1. Absolutely nothing. It was God the Father Himself that said it must shortly take place. Matter of fact the whole of the Book of Revelation was the words of God the Father.

And what does God the Father say about the time of the fulfillment of the details of Revelation?

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Revelation 3:11 Behold, I am coming quickly!

Revelation 22:6 “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.

Revelation 22:7 Behold, I am coming quickly!

Revelation 22:10 Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

Revelation 22:12 And behold, I am coming quickly

Revelation 22:20 “Surely I am coming quickly.

And this is exactly why futurism fails and is ultimately the most embarrassing aspect of Christianity today.
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Old 12-27-2009, 10:54 AM
 
303 posts, read 465,486 times
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ZECHERIAH 14:3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

Last edited by caucazhin; 12-27-2009 at 11:05 AM..
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Old 12-27-2009, 11:10 AM
 
187 posts, read 251,013 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caucazhin View Post
ZECHERIAH 14:3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
We also find in the OT that God rides on swift clouds and on the backs of swift cherubs.

I suppose you think that literally happened too?
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Old 12-27-2009, 11:47 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 11,345,394 times
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The really bad thing about Preterism is that it fails to understand that all the promises of Christ's NEAR, SOON, QUICKLY return was stalled due to the secret or mystery given only to Paul that Israel was to be set aside until the complement of the nations entered. It has been almost 2000 years now and the complement of the nations has not occurred yet.

Rom 11:25 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering."
Rom 11:26 And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."
Rom 11:27 And this is my covenant with them Whenever I should be eliminating their sins.


Notice it states that Christ will come back ONLY WHEN THE COMPLEMENT OF THE NATIONS ENTERS !

Preterists do not understand this. They are either willfully ignorant of this truth or quite possibly God has just never opened their eyes to this truth. But one day my very dear Preterist brothers in Christ will see the truth of it.
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,430 posts, read 7,850,376 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
The really bad thing about Preterism is that it fails to understand that all the promises of Christ's NEAR, SOON, QUICKLY return was stalled due to the secret or mystery given only to Paul that Israel was to be set aside until the complement of the nations entered. It has been almost 2000 years now and the complement of the nations has not occurred yet.

Rom 11:25 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering."
Rom 11:26 And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."
Rom 11:27 And this is my covenant with them Whenever I should be eliminating their sins.


Notice it states that Christ will come back ONLY WHEN THE COMPLEMENT OF THE NATIONS ENTERS !

Preterists do not understand this. They are either willfully ignorant of this truth or quite possibly God has just never opened their eyes to this truth. But one day my very dear Preterist brothers in Christ will see the truth of it.
I believe that anyone who reads the history of Jerusalem will notice the prophetic similarities. Josephus described that period of time as the worst in history.

A good picture of this time can be found here: The Destruction of the Second Temple

an excerpt:
Flavius Josephus also recorded a legend that sprung up about the Temple. While the Temple was on fire and there was tremendous looting, killing and rape many rushed to the Temple to die rather than become Roman slaves. When the flames leaped through the roof and the smoke had risen in thick columns one of the priests supposedly climbed to the top of the main tower. He had in his hand the key to the sanctuary. When he reached the top he cried out, "If you, Lord, no longer judge us to be worthy to administer Your house, take back the key until You deem us worthy again." As the legend goes, a hand appeared from heaven and took the key from the priest.

The general idea is that the Jews recognized the destruction of Jerusalem as an act of judgment by God. They even recognized that Jesus had foretold it but they refuse to believe he was the conqueror they hoped for in a Messiah.

This all happened back then at the time the bible was written, not future.
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,295 posts, read 4,995,798 times
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Eusebius,

You also forget that the Fullness of the Gentiles, and the gospel preached unto all the nations were undoubtedly fulfilled by Paul himself. Your argument again is ad hominem:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

This is the bad thing about Futurism, is that it has postponed the prophecies that were fulfilled in scripture, claimed as such, and rendered the Prophets and Jesus Christ Himself, as false.
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:41 PM
 
187 posts, read 251,013 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
The really bad thing about Preterism is that it fails to understand that all the promises of Christ's NEAR, SOON, QUICKLY return was stalled due to the secret or mystery given only to Paul that Israel was to be set aside until the complement of the nations entered. It has been almost 2000 years now and the complement of the nations has not occurred yet.

Rom 11:25 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering."
Rom 11:26 And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."
Rom 11:27 And this is my covenant with them Whenever I should be eliminating their sins.


Notice it states that Christ will come back ONLY WHEN THE COMPLEMENT OF THE NATIONS ENTERS !

Preterists do not understand this. They are either willfully ignorant of this truth or quite possibly God has just never opened their eyes to this truth. But one day my very dear Preterist brothers in Christ will see the truth of it.
What do you think the New Covenant was? It was inclusive of all nations. All 12 tribes and the gentiles. The fulfillment of Ezekiel 37.

Priceless...

Hey...Maybe you could address the original post...Rather than hijacking the thread.
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:12 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 6,785,462 times
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Eusebius,

You also forget that the Fullness of the Gentiles, and the gospel preached unto all the nations were undoubtedly fulfilled by Paul himself. Your argument again is ad hominem:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

This is the bad thing about Futurism, is that it has postponed the prophecies that were fulfilled in scripture, claimed as such, and rendered the Prophets and Jesus Christ Himself, as false.

Well obviously Paul was wrong. He had probably thought that the gospel had been preached to every culture under heaven but that was not the case. They thought that Rome was the whole world back then after all, and that the earth was flat. We know the native Americans had not heard the gospel at that time ...

Or it could be that Paul was speaking in the past tense there because he was referring to the fact that the gospel had been given in general to the people.


Whatever the case may be, i will tell you what i think is the really bad thing about preterism. They deny the literal resurrection of the dead, and they believe what is contrary to the scripture, that the works of the devil, sin and death and all the things thereof, will exist forever.

But what is really really bad about preterism, is that what they teach, if it isn't true, will lead many people who believe it is to accepting the mark of the beast and the authority of the beast system.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 12-27-2009 at 02:57 PM..
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:28 PM
 
187 posts, read 251,013 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Well obviously Paul was wrong. He had probably thought that the gospel had been preached to very culture under heaven but that was not the case. They thought that Rome was the whole world back then after all, and that the earth was flat. We know the native Americans had not heard the gospel at that time ...

Or it could be that Paul was speaking in the past tense there because he was referring to the fact that the gospel had been given in general to the people.


Whatever the case may be, i will tell you what i think is the really bad thing about preterism. They deny the literal resurrection of the dead, and they believe what is contrary to the scripture, that the works of the devil, sin and death and all the things thereof, will exist forever.

But what is really really bad about preterism, is that what they teach, if it isn't true, will lead many people who believe it is to accepting the mark of the beast and the authority of the beast system.
Is this really all the better you can do. Paul was wrong??? Was the Spirit that inspired him wrong too?

Jesus said that the gospel would be preached to all the world then "the end' would come.

Paul said it happened something like 6 times. And "the end" did come. The end of old covenant judaism to whom the gospel message was intended.

And this is where futurism fails...You say that the end that was in view was the end of the world...the end of time. Yet the Bible no where even used the term, "end of time." However it did speak of the "time of the end." And Genesis 49:1 tells us that the "last days" was specifically related to the 12 tribes of Israel.

Not the last days at the end of time.

Final Score:
Preterism...777
Futurism...666
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:53 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 6,785,462 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psychohmike View Post
Is this really all the better you can do. Paul was wrong??? Was the Spirit that inspired him wrong too?

Jesus said that the gospel would be preached to all the world then "the end' would come.

Paul said it happened something like 6 times. And "the end" did come. The end of old covenant judaism to whom the gospel message was intended.

And this is where futurism fails...You say that the end that was in view was the end of the world...the end of time. Yet the Bible no where even used the term, "end of time." However it did speak of the "time of the end." And Genesis 49:1 tells us that the "last days" was specifically related to the 12 tribes of Israel.

Not the last days at the end of time.

Final Score:
Preterism...777
Futurism...666

Excuse me ... I'm only pointing out the facts. There are still people on earth today in remote parts of the world who have never actually heard of Christ, much less have they ever had the true Gospel preached to them ...

I do not believe that the "end of the world" will happen when Christ returns. Perhaps the end of the world as we know it. And his return will certainly not be the end of time ...

There are still many things that must happen before the new heavens and earth can even come to pass as far as i can tell. First of all the bindong of satan in the pit for a thousand years ... The whole 1,000 years equals around 40 years explanation which i have heard some preterists refer to is quite simply unacceptable. At this time Satan is alive and well in the world today and his works are prospering to great destruction.

Do you Preterists really believe satan is now presently in the lake of fire, and that from there he controls his demonic legions and deceives the nations on the earth? For certainly all the nations are yet deceived ...

The bad thing about preterism is that they make Satan out to be god of this world for ever.
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