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I'm off for a bit, I will try to cover some of the "eternal hell" and "wrath" verses this evening. But in the meantime dear readers, I ask you to consider:
1. Does scripture contradict itself?
2. Can the bible tell us God will save all and also tell us some will be tortured for eternity?
3. Do you believe the scriptures I have presented so far?
Fun fact: do a search for "eternal hell" on biblegateway.com. That phrase does not exist in the bible...
Sciotamicks, its not even worth addressing your arugments until you address your own inconsistencies in them. You go through all the trouble to somehow prove that 1 Tim 2:4 is not saying God wants to save all men, then you say above that God desires all men to be saved? Which is it? You speak in nonsense contradictions. Same thing with your Calv/Arminian switch. One minute you say God is in charge of salvation, the next you claim its up to man's free will. It can't be both.
Legoman, Let's keep the personal attacks at bay, and attack the view.
Your view contains plenty of inconsistencies, as the paradigm you support, places the role of mankind and his abnility to be saved post mortem. 1 Tim 2:1-6 is about the partition being removed from Jew to Gentile, a fact that was occurring in the 1st century. If you bothered to engage in the context of the prose, you would see this as I have shown.
...for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savoir,
"All men" means men of every station in life and racial origin. It is a removal of racial and social distinctions.
Is it God's will that no one perish? Does God want to save all men?
Again, we must look at the context of this verse:
2 Peter 3:3-4 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
The Second Coming of Christ is in view here, and scoffers are saying, "Where is He? I thought he promised to come soon." The non-Christian Jews, Judaizers, and other critics of Christianity were heckling the saints with the delay in fulfillment of Christ's predictions to destroy the old and bring in the new heaven and earth. Verse 8 and 9 answer the question that these scoffers ask:
2 Peter 3:8-9 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Who are the "beloved" of verse 8? They are Christian Jews. God has not forgotten His promise; speaking of his promise to return in judgement, destroying the old heaven and earth and establishing the new heaven and earth.
Notice who Peter is saying would see the "promise" fulfilled? Some generation way off in the future? No, look at the context (vss. 11, 12, 13,14, 16). Peter is telling his contemporaries, "We are looking for these things" (vs. 13). "He is longsuffering to us-ward" -- is referring to the elect Jews as a whole, waiting for the deliverer to come from ZION. "Not willing that any should perish"-- the antecedent of "any" is the beloved of verse 1.
Clearly, Peter is not saying that God wants to save everybody. Jay Green's Interlinear Bible puts it this way, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to US-ward, not willing that ANY OF US should perish, but that ALL OF US should come to repentance." The "us" referring to the elect.
1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
This is not teaching that Jesus propitiates for everyone's sins, but that He is the ONLY propitiation that there is. It is not speaking of universal propitiation, but of exclusiveness. In other words, there is no other propitiation other than Jesus Christ. If they don't look to Christ, there is no one else to propitiate for their sins. Jesus is the only propitiation for all the world. Peter tells us this in:
Acts 4:10-12 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 "This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' 12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
So, 1 John 2:2 doesn't support universalism either.
Romans 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
God says, "the principle upon which I work is this, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." That is a formal declaration of divine prerogative. Election is based upon the mercy of God. For God to choose some for salvation is for God to show mercy to those individuals. God is free to show mercy to whom He will.
God is sovereign in the exercise of His mercy. Mercy is not a right to which man is entitled. Mercy is that attribute of God by which He pities and relieves the wretched. The objects of mercy, then, are those who are miserable, and all misery is the result of sin, hence the miserable are deserving of punishment, not mercy. To speak of deserving mercy is a contradiction of terms. God gives mercy to whom He pleases and withholds mercy as it seems good to himself.
Only those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ will receive God's mercy, and only those who God has chosen will believe. God's attributes of wrath and justice will be displayed on the non-elect. God does not love those who His wrath abides in, nor will He save "all" men either.
Quote:
And I never said we were robots. You haven't been paying attention again. I said we are clay, which is what scripture says we are.
You don't believe in free will at all, is that not correct?
It is the defintion of "all" where you are having trouble understanding.
When you say you believe God wants to save all men, but then in another post you say God doesn't want to save all men, I am at a loss. You redefine the word "all" at your pleasure, how you see fit, without any rhyme or reason.
Sorry that is not how it works in the English language. All absolutely means all, unless UNLESS there is some reason it CANNOT mean all. You cannot redefine it at your whim which is what it appears to me you are doing. If you only mean all "kinds", then you should say "all kinds", not "all".
In my poll, on God's desire to save all, I specified this includes all people (even Hitler etc.). You voted yes. Then in other posts I see you saying God doesn't desire all people to be saved.
I'm left to believe you are either confused or lying. So it is very difficult for me to understand the rest of your beliefs when I cannot even get this baseline question answered.
Now, on 1 Tim 2:4:
1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
You claim, as all Calvinists do, that the "all" in 1 Tim 2:4 is limited to only "all types" because verse 2 talks about "kings", which is a "kind", therefore the all in 1 Tim 2:4 MUST be "all kinds".
Nope. WRONG. Sorry. This is not how the English language works. You CANNOT redefine words willy-nilly. There is simply no reason to limit the meaning of all in this case.
All means all, unless it CANNOT mean all. In that case, it is then limited by the reasonable context. Is there some reason that All men cannot mean All men in 1 Tim 2:4? No there is no reason to limit it. God indeed is powerful enough to save all men.
Now I will show you an example in the English language where "all" MUST be limited:
"I post on city-data all the time". Do I really mean all the time, every moment? OF course not. I am human, require time to sleep and eat. In this case it is simply a figure of speech, a form of exaggeration.
Now what if I said: "God watches the universe all the time". Would you also think that is an exaggeration, or the literal truth? It is actually the literal truth. There is no reason to limit all, again because the context does not demand we limit it.
This is why Calvinists have the WRONG interpretation when they limit 1 Tim 2:4 to only "all kinds" of men.
The confusion over "all men" could have been alleviated if the scripture had been written like this:
who will have all believers to be saved
OR
who will have all kinds of men to be saved
OR
who will have all elect people to be saved
But the scripture was not written that way.
See, that is what language and words do - it conveys meaning. Any of these phrases are crystal clear as to who God is the savior of, because the words have specific meanings which we understand.
Just as this phrase is crystal clear as to who God will have to be saved:
1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Now I would like to continue on the main topic of scriptures that proved to me universal salvation is true.
Many people will bring up scriptures that have God showing wrath. Its important to note that God shows wrath, but God is not wrath. Contrast with love, in which scripture tells us God both is love and also shows love.
Here is an example of God's wrath:
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
People will use John 3:36 as proof of "eternal" wrath. Is God's wrath really eternal? Does it go on forever?
Isaiah 57:16 I will not accuse forever, nor will I always be angry, for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me— the breath of man that I have created.
Micah 7:18 Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.
God doesn't stay angry forever, but actually delights to show mercy!
Rev 15:1 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God's wrath is completed.
All the plagues in Revelations. Its all God's wrath. And it all ends. Look at the amplified for more detail:
Rev 15:1 THEN I saw another wonder (sign, token, symbol) in heaven, great and marvelous [warning of events of ominous significance]: There were seven angels bringing seven plagues (afflictions, calamities), which are the last, for with them God's wrath (indignation) is completely expressed [reaches its climax and is ended]
God's wrath is completely expressed, reaches its climax, and is ended. God will not be angry forever. How could He when He desires to save all mankind? If God was angry forever, then He would never show His mercy to all.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Matt 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:41 is another favorite verse used to "prove" eternal torment. But read it carefully. It is the fire that is eternal. It doesn't specify how long anyone is thrown into the fire, what gets burned up, and whether they come out or not. It does use this word "cursed" though. The cursed are thrown into the eternal fire.
Rev 22:3 No longer will there be a curse upon anything.
There will come a day when there will no longer be a curse upon anything. Would this not include those who were cursed and thrown into the eternal fire? What is the opposite of "cursed"? It is a blessing.
The confusion over "all men" could have been alleviated if the scripture had been written like this:
who will have all believers to be saved
OR
who will have all kinds of men to be saved
OR
who will have all elect people to be saved
But the scripture was not written that way.
See, that is what language and words do - it conveys meaning. Any of these phrases are crystal clear as to who God is the savior of, because the words have specific meanings which we understand.
Just as this phrase is crystal clear as to who God will have to be saved:
1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Back in Genesis, we read of this promise God made:
Gen 28:13 There above it stood the LORD, and he said: "I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying. 14 Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring.
God promised that Abraham's descendants would be countless, but the even more amazing promise is that God said ALL peoples on earth would be blessed through you and your offspring.
Think about this for a moment. This is not simply talking about people alive in Abraham's time. God says through you and your offspring. This is talking about all people throughout time. "All peoples on earth". They will all be blessed through Abraham's seed (offspring).
But was Abraham's seed really his physical offspring being referred to here? Later on in the New Testament we learn what this really means:
Gal 3:6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
Abraham's seed is all believers - all elect.
Gal 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
And they are heirs of the promise... what promise? The promise to give them all the land they were on, and be as countless as the stars, AND to bless all peoples on earth!
So who again is Abraham's seed? These are believers in Christ - those elected and predestined by God - the few chosen by God out of the many called.
This is amazing stuff. Here we have scripture telling us, all elect people (true believers, Abraham's seed) will bless all the peoples of the earth!
In effect, the elect will bless everyone else! Remember everyone else is still an unbeliever at this point. So what will they bless everyone else with? Will they bestow them with a "blessing" of "eternal torment"? Or is there something bigger at work here?
The elect are called to be judges, rulers, ministers, and priests. They will preach to the world. Perhaps you can see where this is going.
Thanks! Its so simple, if we would only believe what is written there.
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You speak in nonsense contradictions. Same thing with your Calv/Arminian switch. One minute you say God is in charge of salvation, the next you claim its up to man's free will. It can't be both.