Scriptures that proved to me Universal Salvation is true (church, belief, Jesus)
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Nope not a strawman arguement, just scripture to show the heresy of universalist.
Except we don't believe aionion means temporary.
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This is the word which the Bible uses to describe how long Gods promises will last.
Olam is also a word applied to men and hills. Do you believe men are "from everlasting"?
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So, by your weak explanation, you are saying this is just for a distant time.
I didn't write that. It was from a Hebrew language website. It didn't say "just" for a distant time. The definition they gave does not limit the noun to being less than eternal, nor does it guarantee that the noun is eternal.
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The hebrew word olam and aionious that is translated forevermore is translated correctly in the Septuagint.
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Hebrew-olam=aionios-Septuagint
Why didn't they tranlate it "forevermore" in this passage?
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the old [olam, aionion] wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
the KJV “will have all men to be saved” could be construed to imply that everyone will be saved, but that is not the case.
The Greek word is thelei, a present tense form, which describes the abiding wish or desire of God. He continuously wants all to be saved.
Actually if you study the verse in Greek and I think that you posted in another post, that desire is the best and proper word to place in the scripture.
1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Paul did not say that God had "decreed" all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. He simply said that God "desires" (present tense) all people to be saved. That distinction needs to be made
Christ is and was a sin offering for everyone, all offering salvation to all by faith to believe in Him. Rom. 3:25
Everyone will not be in heaven. People are mistranslating the word, and using desire for something that it does not mean.
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
Actually you are wrong about this
If you study the word, do research, look up in lexicon you will have a better understanding of the aionios and it's family words, aionion, aioniou to mean without beginning or end and eternal.
Everlasting and eternal are used to describe both torment and life, indicating that one will last as long as the other. In fact "everlasting" is used of God in
Romans 16:26
but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—
Now when we look at the same verse in Greek we see the word aiōniou (αἰωνίου)
Now most Universalist they like to use the YLT version and it says:
Romans 16:26 YLT
and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith.
Universalist say an age is only for a time period, or temporary. We see and know that this can't be correct because God is not a temporary, time period to end God. He is and will be forever, He will never cease to exist. In this scripture the word is adjective aioniou is an adjective of duration and which thereby describes the duration of God. The everlasting God, the aioniou God. The duration here will never end at any time, not even for an age.
If the adjective aioniou is restricted to mean a time period called an age as some believe and teach and modifies Theou (God) as you see in Romans 16:26 then the time period of God, His duration of existence is an age. He therefore would not be an everlasting or eternal God but an age-lasting or age-during God. As we see the word has to be translated eternal or everlasting because of the grammar and context does not support an age-lasting or age-during god as universalist are believing. This is an interpretation error.
Look at:
Ezekiel 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore.
Ezekiel 37:26 in YLT
And I have made to them a covenant of peace, A covenant age-during it is with them, And I have placed them, and multiplied them, And placed My sanctuary in their midst -- to the age.
Ok, now look at
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2 Thessalonians 1:9 YLT
who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
Now the greek word olethron aionion is rendered everlasting destruction, but aionion is falsely claimed to be an eon or an age.
As you see here:
Matthew 25:46 YLT
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
So, if the word was true as some universalist say and believe, the righteous will only have life for an age or eon, the time duration will end and they want have life. Notice the word being used for both the righteous and those being punished (αἰώνιον, aiōnion)
Hebrews 9:12
Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Hebrews 9:12 YLT
neither through blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, did enter in once into the holy places, age-during redemption having obtained;
Now we know that God redeemed us forever, eternal to never pass, all time. Our redemption will not end for a time or period and must mean forever, eternal for all time.
1 Timothy 6:16
who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
1 Timothy 6:16 YLT
who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom [is] honour and might age-during! Amen.
By looking at how the word is being used in this scripture we see the word immortality (never ending) the word placed in this scripture coudn't contradict one another and we see and understand what the word means (aionion).
John 3:15-16
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[a] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:15-16
that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
Now once again we see (aiōnion) if the word meant only for an age, a time period to end those who believe in Jesus will eventually perish when their time is up. God didn't give His Son only for a period of time for those who that believe in Him to eventually perish anyway.
2 Corinthians 5:1 YLT
For we have known that if our earthly house of the tabernacle may be thrown down, a building from God we have, an house not made with hands -- age-during -- in the heavens.
Once again if we use the concept only for a period of time that will end, then we are in trouble.
Hebrews 9:14
how much more shall the blood of the Christ (who through the age-during Spirit did offer himself unblemished to God) purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
We know that The Holy Spirit is not for a time or period, so we know eternal Spirit is the correct word to use here.
So, you see you can't pick and choose what verse you want to believe or not. You can't say that you believe the first half of a sentence and not the next. God's Word will stand and He means what He says.
Matthew 25:46 YLT
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
If someone wants to twist and say the word is only for a time, eon, or age, then you have to change the second half of the sentence.
And these shall go away to punishment (only for a while, an age, an eon, temporary to end), but the righteous to life (only for a while, an age, an eon, temprary to end.
You can't have it one way. Sorry, the facts are here, but people pick and choose what they want to believe due to them not liking certains things in scripture.
Miss Shawn, this thread is not for arguing the meaning of aion/aionios. Please re-read my OP. That has been beaten to death in other threads before, we can start another thread on it if you wish.
I will just say this on it and then move on: you are defining "aionios" as "a temporary or limited time", and that is incorrect, just as defining it as "eternal" is incorrect.
What this thread is for (if you read the OP) is for discussing all the other verses that show UR. I have looked at all the arguments you have presented already in the past. And they have been found to be flawed. For example you mention 1 Tim 2:4. Yes it could be interpreted as "desire to save all". I also covered that in my OP. Did you read my OP?
Anyway scripture tells us God can and will achieve His desires. So your point on 1 Tim 2:4 is moot.
By the way you should get together with sciotamicks and compare notes. You say Christ died for everyone, sciotamicks says Christ didn't die for everyone. Sciotamicks also says God doesn't love everyone.
What is the immediate context of "all men"? It was the one who is performing the action of "willing to be saved" on the "all men". The immediate context is God.
Is there any reason to believe God CANNOT will all men to be saved? NO, for God is all-powerful and all-loving. Therefore "all men" does not need to be limited any way. The natural meaning of "all" is "each and everyone". The "all men" in 1 Tim 2:4 means literally all people who have ever existed.
And yes Fundy, "all men" can include women as it is really a gender neutral term meaning "all people".
Your word manipulation only makes sense in your head sciotamicks. Try just reading what it says.
1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
This is not teaching that Jesus propitiates for everyone's sins, but that He is the ONLY propitiation that there is. It is not speaking of universal propitiation, but of exclusiveness. In other words, there is no other propitiation other than Jesus Christ. If they don't look to Christ, there is no one else to propitiate for their sins. Jesus is the only propitiation for all the world. Peter tells us this in:
Acts 4:10-12 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 "This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' 12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
So, 1 John 2:2 doesn't support universalism either.
This is simply more word manipulation on your part sciotamicks. 1 John 2:2 doesn't say that "Jesus is the only way to salvation". That is what Acts 4:10-12 says. Why are you rewriting 1 John 2:2 to transfer that meaning there, when as it stands 1 John 2:2 makes perfect sense?
True, Jesus is the only way to salvation, as Acts 4:12 says, AND that salvation was made for EVERYONE as 1 John 2:2 says. But you would rewrite 1 John 2:2 to suit the ideas in your brain.
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Romans 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
God says, "the principle upon which I work is this, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." That is a formal declaration of divine prerogative. Election is based upon the mercy of God. For God to choose some for salvation is for God to show mercy to those individuals. God is free to show mercy to whom He will.
God is sovereign in the exercise of His mercy. Mercy is not a right to which man is entitled. Mercy is that attribute of God by which He pities and relieves the wretched. The objects of mercy, then, are those who are miserable, and all misery is the result of sin, hence the miserable are deserving of punishment, not mercy. To speak of deserving mercy is a contradiction of terms. God gives mercy to whom He pleases and withholds mercy as it seems good to himself.
Only those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ will receive God's mercy, and only those who God has chosen will believe. God's attributes of wrath and justice will be displayed on the non-elect. God does not love those who His wrath abides in, nor will He save "all" men either.
You don't believe in free will at all, is that not correct?
Two points I would like to make here:
1. First of all scripture proves that God does love everyone, as I have shown in this post and this post. If you are suggesting God hates forever, then you are contradicting much scripture that says God will not be angry forever, and indeed is loving to His creation and in all His deeds. God is light, and those who hate are in the darkness... so how can their be eternal hatred in that which is light? Is there darkness in God? Go back and read the scriptures in those posts.
2. You show your contradictory beliefs again when you suggest man has free will but God chooses who will be saved. Where's man alleged "free will" in coming to Christ? Come on, if you are going to call yourself a Calvinist, you need to give up your free will beliefs. This constant flip-flopping between Calvinist/Arminian beliefs only confuses your position, and makes the discussion pointless.
I ask you humbly to study the scriptures I have posted so far. If you look at what detractors in this thread do, they either try to rewrite the scripture so it has a different meaning than the plain reading, or they will simply say its not gonna happen, or they will use one verse to contradict another verse.
"God will have all men to be saved" - nope it can't mean that! "God desires to have all men be saved" - yeah, but it won't happen!
Oh really. If you notice, this one verse of 1 Tim 2:4 gets picked on. But then the volume of other verses that I have presented gets ignored. Hopefully by now the honest reader can see there are an overwhelming amount of verses that prove universal salvation.
How does the detractor deal with the fact that all people will be blessed through Abraham's seed? He cannot, without rewriting the meaning of the verse. How does the detractor deal with the fact that God has sworn all people will swear allegiance to Him? He cannot.
Let me post a summary of all scripture I have provided so far, and ask yourself if you believe what scripture says:
- God will have all men to be saved
- God desires to have all men to be saved
- God can achieve all His desires, no one can oppose Him
- every person who has existed will swear allegiance to God
- the good news is for all people
- Jesus is the atonement for the sins of the whole world
- Jesus takes away the sin of the world
- Jesus is the savior of the world
- No one can come to Christ unless God draws them
- God will draw all men to Christ
- We are saved by God's grace and the measure of faith He gives us
- this saving grace has come to all people
- God has shown us how kind He is by coming to save all people
- all mankind will see God's salvation
- God grants us repentance and leads us into repentance by His kindness
- God's grace teaches us to be righteous and repent
- God's plan is to unify all things and put them under Christ
- God is operating all things according to His plan and will
- His plan will not fail
- God is Love
- God is kind, patient, protecting, unfailing
- God tells us to love one another, even love our enemies, so that we can be like Him
- God is loving to everyone
- God is loving in all His deeds
- Love will not fail
- God will not always be angry
- God shows His wrath, but His wrath will eventually end
- God binds people over to disobedience, and then has mercy on them
- God has bound all people over to disobedience, so He can show mercy on all
- God delights in showing mercy
- one day there will be no curse on anything
- all people on earth will be blessed through Abraham's seed (true believers of Christ)
Are you starting to see it yet? This is not just a couple verses we are talking about here. This is the whole bible, every story, every parable, it all shows God's plan for humanity.
Do you believe these scriptures I have posted? Its just the tip of the iceberg. I've got more to post still...
It all proves to me that universal salvation is 100% biblical.
Ask yourself this: Will God save all people? Detractors will always fall into one of two groups.
1. God wants to save all people, but He can't.
OR
2. God doesn't want to save all people.
This is the classic Arminian vs. Calvinist debate.
Does either of these answers fit the character of God described in the bible? God, who is all-powerful, all-loving, all-wise, all-just, and completely Holy? Is there darkness in God? Is there weakness in God?
I ask you humbly to study the scriptures I have posted so far. If you look at what detractors in this thread do, they either try to rewrite the scripture so it has a different meaning than the plain reading, or they will simply say its not gonna happen, or they will use one verse to contradict another verse.
"God will have all men to be saved" - nope it can't mean that! "God desires to have all men be saved" - yeah, but it won't happen!
Oh really. If you notice, this one verse of 1 Tim 2:4 gets picked on. But then the volume of other verses that I have presented gets ignored. Hopefully by now the honest reader can see there are an overwhelming amount of verses that prove universal salvation.
How does the detractor deal with the fact that all people will be blessed through Abraham's seed? He cannot, without rewriting the meaning of the verse. How does the detractor deal with the fact that God has sworn all people will swear allegiance to Him? He cannot.
Let me post a summary of all scripture I have provided so far, and ask yourself if you believe what scripture says:
- God will have all men to be saved
- God desires to have all men to be saved
- God can achieve all His desires, no one can oppose Him
- every person who has existed will swear allegiance to God
- the good news is for all people
- Jesus is the atonement for the sins of the whole world
- Jesus takes away the sin of the world
- Jesus is the savior of the world
- No one can come to Christ unless God draws them
- God will draw all men to Christ
- We are saved by God's grace and the measure of faith He gives us
- this saving grace has come to all people
- God has shown us how kind He is by coming to save all people
- all mankind will see God's salvation
- God grants us repentance and leads us into repentance by His kindness
- God's grace teaches us to be righteous and repent
- God's plan is to unify all things and put them under Christ
- God is operating all things according to His plan and will
- His plan will not fail
- God is Love
- God is kind, patient, protecting, unfailing
- God tells us to love one another, even love our enemies, so that we can be like Him
- God is loving to everyone
- God is loving in all His deeds
- Love will not fail
- God will not always be angry
- God shows His wrath, but His wrath will eventually end
- God binds people over to disobedience, and then has mercy on them
- God has bound all people over to disobedience, so He can show mercy on all
- God delights in showing mercy
- one day there will be no curse on anything
- all people on earth will be blessed through Abraham's seed (true believers of Christ)
Are you starting to see it yet? This is not just a couple verses we are talking about here. This is the whole bible, every story, every parable, it all shows God's plan for humanity.
Do you believe these scriptures I have posted? Its just the tip of the iceberg. I've got more to post still...
It all proves to me that universal salvation is 100% biblical.
All your statements prove to me 100% you did not read the Old Testament. About half of the points you pointed out about God are false and made up to suit your belief system. If you actually read the old testament you'd realize that. You know, the stuff about God slaying all the first born by speaking a word or by commanding soldiers to run swords through pregnant women. You are totally ignoring massive parts of the bible to preach heresy and suit your very narrow minded belief system based on your perceived word misinterpretation of aion. The bible also says that people who go outside of it for knowledge are lost because they follow the wisdom of men, which you're doing in seeking new interpretations. I guess if you repeat a lie enough, you start to believe it.
Regardless of what you personally believe, you are just as bad as fundamentalists who go around all day telling people they will burn in hell. You don't convert people by threatening them just like you won't convert people by telling them "Don't worry you won't burn in hell because it doesn't exist or its temporary". Both extreme viewpoints are absolutely terrible ways to introduce people to God. Either way, it doesn't matter, and to argue about it all day is a total waste of time. If both sides believe in God for salvation then you shouldn't be worried about going to hell regardless. God would be ashamed that you spend all of your time wielding an internet sword over a fruitless argument when you could be using your time to volunteer, donate, worship, or other things like missionary work. You know, work that actually benefits God. Instead you people bicker over interpretations all day long, pathetic really.
All your statements prove to me 100% you did not read the Old Testament. About half of the points you pointed out about God are false and made up to suit your belief system. If you actually read the old testament you'd realize that. You know, the stuff about God slaying all the first born by speaking a word or by commanding soldiers to run swords through pregnant women. You are totally ignoring massive parts of the bible to preach heresy and suit your very narrow minded belief system based on your perceived word misinterpretation of aion. The bible also says that people who go outside of it for knowledge are lost because they follow the wisdom of men, which you're doing in seeking new interpretations. I guess if you repeat a lie enough, you start to believe it.
Regardless of what you personally believe, you are just as bad as fundamentalists who go around all day telling people they will burn in hell. You don't convert people by threatening them just like you won't convert people by telling them "Don't worry you won't burn in hell because it doesn't exist or its temporary". Both extreme viewpoints are absolutely terrible ways to introduce people to God. Either way, it doesn't matter, and to argue about it all day is a total waste of time. If both sides believe in God for salvation then you shouldn't be worried about going to hell regardless. God would be ashamed that you spend all of your time wielding an internet sword over a fruitless argument when you could be using your time to volunteer, donate, worship, or other things like missionary work. You know, work that actually benefits God. Instead you people bicker over interpretations all day long, pathetic really.
Well you don't really have the knowledge to know what I have read, now do you Jason28? How do you know that I haven't read the old testament? Are you all-knowing like God? Such claims are just rhetoric.
I'm not trying to convert anyone. I'm simply presenting the truth as I know it. God has given me a desire to share this, so I do as I am blessed to be able to do so. Other people are not. God will convert people as He sees fit.
You bring up God slaying firstborns and running people through with swords. God also flooded the earth killing all people except for 8. So what? You think I'm not aware of those verses because I didn't address them in this thread? You think they contradict the verses I have posted in this thread? God is kind in ALL his deeds. God also creates evil too.
Perhaps you need to really contemplate how God slaying all the firstborn could actually be a kind deed. See this is not possible for a human to do. But for an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving God, it is indeed possible for Him to kill and use that for the increased benefit of all, including those that were killed.
Perhaps you view these discussions as "wasted time", if so, DON'T READ THEM. I view them as "missionary work". The truth needs to be heard, because the truth is good news, unlike the bad news of eternal torment that most churches teach.
I say these things in all kindness. Be well Jason28...
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as it is really a gender neutral term meaning "all people".
