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The confusion over "all men" could have been alleviated if the scripture had been written like this:
who will have all believers to be saved
OR
who will have all kinds of men to be saved
OR
who will have all elect people to be saved
But the scripture was not written that way.
See, that is what language and words do - it conveys meaning. Any of these phrases are crystal clear as to who God is the savior of, because the words have specific meanings which we understand.
Just as this phrase is crystal clear as to who God will have to be saved:
1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
What about women? are they being saved? I mean you said it yourself
Quote:
See, that is what language and words do - it conveys meaning. Any of these phrases are crystal clear as to who God is the savior of, because the words have specific meanings which we understand.
Once again the bible is not a 20th century novel written by a 20th century american author.
John 3:16,17 'For God so loved the world (kosmos), that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not his Son into the world(kosmos) to condemn the world (kosmos); but that the world (kosmos) through him might be saved.
Kosmos - an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government.
In this context, Christ was sent into the world, the world of the Jewish people, under the governement of the Old Covenant, the Law. This was the world, the kosmos, He was sent into. Adam sinned inside that Kosmos, in the garden, in the covenant made between him and God. Christ came to redeeem that very covenant, and fulfilled it in His death, resurrection and ascension. One must enter into that Covenant, that Kosmos, to be redeemed in Him, a victory over death and sin. If you stay outside the city gates of the New Covenant, you will take part in the second death, the spritual death. And once that death is imputed, it is end game for those that have rejected that covenant.
The good news is that you should be spreading the gospel so that man can enter into that very covenant. This is the message. To avoid death.
Thanks! Its so simple, if we would only believe what is written there.
the KJV “will have all men to be saved” could be construed to imply that everyone will be saved, but that is not the case.
The Greek word is thelei, a present tense form, which describes the abiding wish or desire of God. He continuously wants all to be saved.
Actually if you study the verse in Greek and I think that you posted in another post, that desire is the best and proper word to place in the scripture.
1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Paul did not say that God had "decreed" all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. He simply said that God "desires" (present tense) all people to be saved. That distinction needs to be made
Christ is and was a sin offering for everyone, all offering salvation to all by faith to believe in Him. Rom. 3:25
Everyone will not be in heaven. People are mistranslating the word, and using desire for something that it does not mean.
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
Quote:
aion/aionios is mistranslated as "eternal/forever
Actually you are wrong about this
If you study the word, do research, look up in lexicon you will have a better understanding of the aionios and it's family words, aionion, aioniou to mean without beginning or end and eternal.
Everlasting and eternal are used to describe both torment and life, indicating that one will last as long as the other. In fact "everlasting" is used of God in
Romans 16:26
but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—
Now when we look at the same verse in Greek we see the word aiōniou (αἰωνίου)
Now most Universalist they like to use the YLT version and it says:
Romans 16:26 YLT
and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith.
Universalist say an age is only for a time period, or temporary. We see and know that this can't be correct because God is not a temporary, time period to end God. He is and will be forever, He will never cease to exist. In this scripture the word is adjective aioniou is an adjective of duration and which thereby describes the duration of God. The everlasting God, the aioniou God. The duration here will never end at any time, not even for an age.
If the adjective aioniou is restricted to mean a time period called an age as some believe and teach and modifies Theou (God) as you see in Romans 16:26 then the time period of God, His duration of existence is an age. He therefore would not be an everlasting or eternal God but an age-lasting or age-during God. As we see the word has to be translated eternal or everlasting because of the grammar and context does not support an age-lasting or age-during god as universalist are believing. This is an interpretation error.
Look at:
Ezekiel 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore.
Ezekiel 37:26 in YLT
And I have made to them a covenant of peace, A covenant age-during it is with them, And I have placed them, and multiplied them, And placed My sanctuary in their midst -- to the age.
Ok, now look at
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2 Thessalonians 1:9 YLT
who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
Now the greek word olethron aionion is rendered everlasting destruction, but aionion is falsely claimed to be an eon or an age.
As you see here:
Matthew 25:46 YLT
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
So, if the word was true as some universalist say and believe, the righteous will only have life for an age or eon, the time duration will end and they want have life. Notice the word being used for both the righteous and those being punished (αἰώνιον, aiōnion)
Hebrews 9:12
Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Hebrews 9:12 YLT
neither through blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, did enter in once into the holy places, age-during redemption having obtained;
Now we know that God redeemed us forever, eternal to never pass, all time. Our redemption will not end for a time or period and must mean forever, eternal for all time.
1 Timothy 6:16
who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
1 Timothy 6:16 YLT
who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom [is] honour and might age-during! Amen.
By looking at how the word is being used in this scripture we see the word immortality (never ending) the word placed in this scripture coudn't contradict one another and we see and understand what the word means (aionion).
John 3:15-16
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[a] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:15-16
that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
Now once again we see (aiōnion) if the word meant only for an age, a time period to end those who believe in Jesus will eventually perish when their time is up. God didn't give His Son only for a period of time for those who that believe in Him to eventually perish anyway.
2 Corinthians 5:1 YLT
For we have known that if our earthly house of the tabernacle may be thrown down, a building from God we have, an house not made with hands -- age-during -- in the heavens.
Once again if we use the concept only for a period of time that will end, then we are in trouble.
Hebrews 9:14
how much more shall the blood of the Christ (who through the age-during Spirit did offer himself unblemished to God) purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
We know that The Holy Spirit is not for a time or period, so we know eternal Spirit is the correct word to use here.
So, you see you can't pick and choose what verse you want to believe or not. You can't say that you believe the first half of a sentence and not the next. God's Word will stand and He means what He says.
Matthew 25:46 YLT
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
If someone wants to twist and say the word is only for a time, eon, or age, then you have to change the second half of the sentence.
And these shall go away to punishment (only for a while, an age, an eon, temporary to end), but the righteous to life (only for a while, an age, an eon, temprary to end.
You can't have it one way. Sorry, the facts are here, but people pick and choose what they want to believe due to them not liking certains things in scripture.
Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 01-22-2010 at 10:27 PM..
Good post Miss Shawn. Universalism has been defeated. They are just in denial right now.
It isn't hard to understand what the scriptures is saying if you put much research and study into it, but the Holy Spirit is the person that reveals truth. Some people just need to take the blinders off.
Good post Miss Shawn. Universalism has been defeated. They are just in denial right now.
No, her post was a strawman, though she didn't do it on purpose.
1. aionion - does not mean temporary since it is applied to God 2. aionion - does not mean everlasting since it is appled in the LXX to consequences of sin which are temporary and undone by Christ
Point #1 is the strawman. Miss Shawn thinks that we think aionion means temporary.
Here is the meaning of olam according to Hebrew language experts. Olam is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek aionion. This is shown by the Holy Spirit's quoting of OT passages in the NT using both words and by the LXX translation of olam as aionion or aion.
In the ancient Hebrew words that are used to described distance and direction are also used to describe time. The Hebrew word for east is qedem and literally means "the direction of the rising sun". We use north as our major orientation such as in maps which are always oriented to the north. While we use the north as our major direction the Hebrews used the east and all directions are oriented to this direction. For example one of the words for south is teyman from the root yaman meaning "to the right". The word qedem is also the word for the past. In the ancient Hebrew mind the past is in front of you while the future is behind you, the opposite way we think of the past and future. The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is "l'olam va'ed" and is usually translated as "forever and ever" but in the Hebrew it means "to the distant horizon and again" meaning "a very distant time and even further" and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time
the KJV “will have all men to be saved” could be construed to imply that everyone will be saved, but that is not the case.
The Greek word is thelei, a present tense form, which describes the abiding wish or desire of God. He continuously wants all to be saved.
Actually if you study the verse in Greek and I think that you posted in another post, that desire is the best and proper word to place in the scripture.
1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Paul did not say that God had "decreed" all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. He simply said that God "desires" (present tense) all people to be saved. That distinction needs to be made
Christ is and was a sin offering for everyone, all offering salvation to all by faith to believe in Him. Rom. 3:25
Everyone will not be in heaven. People are mistranslating the word, and using desire for something that it does not mean.
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
Actually you are wrong about this
If you study the word, do research, look up in lexicon you will have a better understanding of the aionios and it's family words, aionion, aioniou to mean without beginning or end and eternal.
Everlasting and eternal are used to describe both torment and life, indicating that one will last as long as the other. In fact "everlasting" is used of God in
Romans 16:26
but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—
Now when we look at the same verse in Greek we see the word aiōniou (αἰωνίου)
Now most Universalist they like to use the YLT version and it says:
Romans 16:26 YLT
and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith.
Universalist say an age is only for a time period, or temporary. We see and know that this can't be correct because God is not a temporary, time period to end God. He is and will be forever, He will never cease to exist. In this scripture the word is adjective aioniou is an adjective of duration and which thereby describes the duration of God. The everlasting God, the aioniou God. The duration here will never end at any time, not even for an age.
If the adjective aioniou is restricted to mean a time period called an age as some believe and teach and modifies Theou (God) as you see in Romans 16:26 then the time period of God, His duration of existence is an age. He therefore would not be an everlasting or eternal God but an age-lasting or age-during God. As we see the word has to be translated eternal or everlasting because of the grammar and context does not support an age-lasting or age-during god as universalist are believing. This is an interpretation error.
Look at:
Ezekiel 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore.
Ezekiel 37:26 in YLT
And I have made to them a covenant of peace, A covenant age-during it is with them, And I have placed them, and multiplied them, And placed My sanctuary in their midst -- to the age.
Ok, now look at
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2 Thessalonians 1:9 YLT
who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
Now the greek word olethron aionion is rendered everlasting destruction, but aionion is falsely claimed to be an eon or an age.
As you see here:
Matthew 25:46 YLT
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
So, if the word was true as some universalist say and believe, the righteous will only have life for an age or eon, the time duration will end and they want have life. Notice the word being used for both the righteous and those being punished (αἰώνιον, aiōnion)
Hebrews 9:12
Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Hebrews 9:12 YLT
neither through blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, did enter in once into the holy places, age-during redemption having obtained;
Now we know that God redeemed us forever, eternal to never pass, all time. Our redemption will not end for a time or period and must mean forever, eternal for all time.
1 Timothy 6:16
who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
1 Timothy 6:16 YLT
who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom [is] honour and might age-during! Amen.
By looking at how the word is being used in this scripture we see the word immortality (never ending) the word placed in this scripture coudn't contradict one another and we see and understand what the word means (aionion).
John 3:15-16
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[a] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:15-16
that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
Now once again we see (aiōnion) if the word meant only for an age, a time period to end those who believe in Jesus will eventually perish when their time is up. God didn't give His Son only for a period of time for those who that believe in Him to eventually perish anyway.
2 Corinthians 5:1 YLT
For we have known that if our earthly house of the tabernacle may be thrown down, a building from God we have, an house not made with hands -- age-during -- in the heavens.
Once again if we use the concept only for a period of time that will end, then we are in trouble.
Hebrews 9:14
how much more shall the blood of the Christ (who through the age-during Spirit did offer himself unblemished to God) purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
We know that The Holy Spirit is not for a time or period, so we know eternal Spirit is the correct word to use here.
So, you see you can't pick and choose what verse you want to believe or not. You can't say that you believe the first half of a sentence and not the next. God's Word will stand and He means what He says.
Matthew 25:46 YLT
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
If someone wants to twist and say the word is only for a time, eon, or age, then you have to change the second half of the sentence.
And these shall go away to punishment (only for a while, an age, an eon, temporary to end), but the righteous to life (only for a while, an age, an eon, temprary to end.
You can't have it one way. Sorry, the facts are here, but people pick and choose what they want to believe due to them not liking certains things in scripture.
After all this work and still the same response my belief is this;
Ezekiel 12:2
2 "Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.
They simply chose to not heed the Word as it is presented.
Matthew 13:15 (Amplified Bible)
15For this nation's heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them.
No, her post was a strawman, though she didn't do it on purpose.
1. aionion - does not mean temporary since it is applied to God 2. aionion - does not mean everlasting since it is appled in the LXX to consequences of sin which are temporary and undone by Christ
Point #1 is the strawman. Miss Shawn thinks that we think aionion means temporary.
Here is the meaning of olam according to Hebrew language experts. Olam is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek aionion. This is shown by the Holy Spirit's quoting of OT passages in the NT using both words and the the LXX translation of the OT.
In the ancient Hebrew words that are used to described distance and direction are also used to describe time. The Hebrew word for east is qedem and literally means "the direction of the rising sun". We use north as our major orientation such as in maps which are always oriented to the north. While we use the north as our major direction the Hebrews used the east and all directions are oriented to this direction. For example one of the words for south is teyman from the root yaman meaning "to the right". The word qedem is also the word for the past. In the ancient Hebrew mind the past is in front of you while the future is behind you, the opposite way we think of the past and future. The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is "l'olam va'ed" and is usually translated as "forever and ever" but in the Hebrew it means "to the distant horizon and again" meaning "a very distant time and even further" and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time
Nope not a strawman arguement, just scripture to show the heresy of universalist.
LOL, I know the word does not mean temporary, that was the meaning of what I wrote. I see that went over your head. I have spoke with universalist on this forum who think that people will eventually get into heaven, who will only be punished temporary, which is not true. Some universalit tried to argue from the standpoint of using the word and trying to say person would only be punished for a time that would eventually end, thus they say it is temporary. Yea right.
Gen 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting[olam] God.
The everlasting to everlasting is olam uod olam. From everlasting (olam) to everlasting (olam).
This is the word which the Bible uses to describe how long Gods promises will last.
So, by your weak explanation, you are saying this is just for a distant time. LOL, someone who does not know any better would only believe that. LOL strawman, means you can't stand up against scripture.
The hebrew word olam and aionious that is translated forevermore is translated correctly in the Septuagint.
Hebrew-olam=aionios-Septuagint.. Anyway, I don't have to spend much time here nothing here, universalist can only hide behind the twisting of scripture. That is your choice and your fault when you stand in front of Christ and have to answer to Him. Moving on.
Anyway, I am going to bed.
Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 01-23-2010 at 03:29 AM..
After all this work and still the same response my belief is this;
Ezekiel 12:2
2 "Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.
They simply chose to not heed the Word as it is presented.
Matthew 13:15 (Amplified Bible)
15For this nation's heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them.
I know it must be difficult for someone to admit that they are wrong, but they are and the scripture speaks for itself. I don't have to argue just post scripture, but of course those who are teaching a false doctrine will never admit that they are wrong and will continue to teach lies.
It doesn't bother me I enjoy the debate.
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