Scriptures that proved to me Universal Salvation is true (disciples, creation, prophecy)
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Very true. However, only in life, pre-mortem this scripture dealing with.
Christ became sin, so that the wicked, if they turn from their wickedness, they will be redeeemd and take part in the Tree of Life.
These scriptures have nothing to do with post-mortem salvation.
None of the scriptures deal with postmortem anything...
Luke 20:38 "Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him.
Is God the god of the dead? None of the scripture really deals with after life. It is a mystery what happens. When you focus what is to come you miss what is now.
Psalm 86:17 Show me a sign for good, That those who hate me may see it and be ashamed, Because You, O LORD, have helped me and comforted me.
Also see Psalm 112:10, as it is the good deeds of the righteous that turns the wicked to weeping and gnashing of teeth so that their desire for wickedness perishes.
There are few things that we can count on:
Death and taxes are two of those things.
Where do you see in scripture a reference to an afterlife if in fact you do?
You presume too much Miss_Shawn. Just because I did not quote the whole chapter does not mean I didn'tread it. Come on, give me a bit of credit here.
Like Ironmaw said, verse 21 does not change the fact of verse 17. Indeed, there is no rest for the wicked. Yet if the wicked turn from their ways, the Lord will have mercy on them and pardon them.
You assume the wicked will always be wicked, yet forget that we all were wicked at one point.
Does God not have the power to turn the wicked from their ways?
I have more to address here, but my time is limited right now.
We are reading scripture that is dealing with healing for the backslider and the wicked. Verse 17-18 is dealing with the backslidder, duh he said your backsliding in his heart.
We were all enemies to God, but we repented and turned from our sin, thus making us sons and daughters of God. Those who do not repent are still considered wicked to God.
Then as you get to v20, God says but the wicked, not the backslidder, the wicked do not repent and turn to God. The wicked do not learn righteousness (thus they are not going to the person who makes them righteous, right or wrong)
None of the scriptures deal with postmortem anything...
Very True
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Luke 20:38 "Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him.
Is God the god of the dead? None of the scripture really deals with after life. It is a mystery what happens. When you focus what is to come you miss what is now.
Psalm 86:17 Show me a sign for good, That those who hate me may see it and be ashamed, Because You, O LORD, have helped me and comforted me.
Also see Psalm 112:10, as it is the good deeds of the righteous that turns the wicked to weeping and gnashing of teeth so that their desire for wickedness perishes.
There are few things that we can count on:
Death and taxes are two of those things.
Tell me about it. After last year in the stock market, I hope I get something back
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Where do you see in scripture a reference to an afterlife if in fact you do?
In regards to the wicked or the righteous? Or both?
With you and myself being a Full Preterist, Rev 21 and 22 only deals with post-Parousia, and still, it is vague.
My point in regards to Universalism, is that the reconciliation for God's people has already been accomplished, in Christ. For those in Christ then and now, we have eternal life, but for the wicked, that deny Him, there is only the second death, and even that is only applied to the resurrection of the dead in Rev 20. In Rev 21, it states the New Jerusalem, the spritual hub between God and His people, the church, and all we have to go on in that regard is the destination of those outside of the city gates:
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
This is spiritual death, complete separation from God. As it was in the garden with Adam, he inherited spritual death, not physical death.
And that garden was redeemed by Christ, in spritual life.
We must remember, the garden was created within the world, the world as a whole is not the garden itself, but separate from it. The place where Adam was cast, and in order for mankind to have access to that tree of life, one must enter back into the garden, to be reconciled in Christ.
Scripture is purely covenantal, and it is that covenant in Christ, that man can only be redeemed from complete separation. It is our job as priests and kings to bring glory into that city, and spread the good news to those we witness to, so they can avoid this second death, by accepting Christ.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 01-29-2010 at 02:13 PM..
Reason: typo
Isa 57:17-18
"For the iniquity of his dishonest gain, I have been wroth, and I smite him, Hiding -- and am wroth, And he goeth on turning back in the way of his heart.
His ways I have seen, and I heal him, yea, I lead him, And recompense comforts to him and to his mourning ones."
It says write here that God smites the wicked, and in anger hides himself from them ... However God sees the ways of the wicked whom his does smite in anger and has declared that he will heal them and restore comforts to them and those that had mourned them in their destruction under the wrath of God.
Miss Shawn ... We were all once wicked, and we all once were unable to appreciate the things of the spirit of God, we counted them as foolishness. Perhaps you were raised in a Christian family and have lived a mild and sheltered life, never the less many others became Christian who were not raised Christian. Many who were once thieves and liars and murders and all kinds of evil men were healed by the spirit of Christ and renewed and brought into the household of faith.
Wicked people learn righteousness all the time, once God has healed them of their wicked ways. As it is written ... "I have seen his ways, and i will heal him".
Isaiah 26 is not translated very well in most bibles ... Specifically Isaiah 26:14 ...
King James Bible
They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
American Standard Version
They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all remembrance of them to perish.
Now compare these translations to ...
Young's Literal Translation
Dead -- they live not, Rephaim, they rise not, Therefore Thou hast inspected and dost destroy them, Yea, thou destroyest all their memory.
and ...
Douay-Rheims Bible
Let not the dead live, let not the giants rise again: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and best destroyed all their memory.
The word Rephaim refers to the Giants that lived in the ancient world, and more specifically to the various tribes of Giants that lived in Canaan before the Hebrews conquered and settled in it. The Hebrew nation wiped out the Rephaim when they entered into Canaan, literally committing mass genocide in certain cases ... Isaiah is here speaking of the destruction which God had wrought on the Rephaim through the Hebrew invasion of Canaan. The Hebrews literally stomped the Rephaim tribes out of existence, and this was considered of no small consequence in the world at that time. It was a testament of the power of the Hebrew people and of the power of their God, as many other nations had failed in the task of eliminating the threat of the tribes of Rephaim.
This verse has nothing to do with the resurrection of the dead ... The bible is clear that there will be a resurrection even of the wicked and unbelieving.
The verse(Isaiah 26:9) which i quoted above clearly states that when the judgments of God are in the earth that the inhabitants of the world WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS ... If the people learn righteousness because of Gods judgments, then they must have been wicked to begin with. The bible says that the wicked do not learn righteousness when they are shown grace ... But when they are smitten by the fiery judgments of Gods wrath and when he hides his face from them they are humbled, and God heals them and restores comforts to them and they learn righteousness. This has happened in many peoples lives here on earth, when they first came to believe on Christ. He can and will accomplish the same for everyone who has ever lived before all is said and done.
The verse(Isaiah 26:9) which i quoted above clearly states that when the judgments of God are in the earth that the inhabitants of the world WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS ... If the people learn righteousness because of Gods judgments, then they must have been wicked to begin with. The bible says that the wicked do not learn righteousness when they are shown grace ... But when they are smitten by the fiery judgments of Gods wrath and when he hides his face from them they are humbled, and God heals them and restores comforts to them and they learn righteousness. This has happened in many peoples lives here on earth, when they first came to believe on Christ. He can and will accomplish the same for everyone who has ever lived before all is said and done.
It says inhabitants of the world, it is clear that all are not learning or accepting because it says the wicked will not learn.
I have asked you this but you didn't answer, if you believe that God will restore them after the wicked are judged, not the same judgement of believers. Show me scripture where God is restoring them after they are judged. Revelations is very clear.
I read all the bible referring to the different bible, I even looked at it in your bible, and hebrew and it says what it says.
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Isaiah 26 is not translated very well in most bibles ... Specifically Isaiah 26:14 ...
LOL, you pull that card and yet you didn't research what it says in hebrew.
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Wicked people learn righteousness all the time, once God has healed them of their wicked ways. As it is written ... "I have seen his ways, and i will heal him".
And yet you look at this scripture and not understand or blindly not see what is being said. Believers who have come to God from the begining is not called wicked when he falls or backslides as you notice, the back slidder was not called wicked. Then as you read down further, the wicked of course if they are wicked they have not come to God. Why are you making this harder than it is. I am not taking anything out of context, because it is there?
We are reading scripture that is dealing with healing for the backslider and the wicked. Verse 17-18 is dealing with the backslidder, duh he said your backsliding in his heart.
We were all enemies to God, but we repented and turned from our sin, thus making us sons and daughters of God. Those who do not repent are still considered wicked to God.
Then as you get to v20, God says but the wicked, not the backslidder, the wicked do not repent and turn to God. The wicked do not learn righteousness (thus they are not going to the person who makes them righteous, right or wrong)
Where do you find the word backslider in this chapter? This Chapter is talking about the children of sorcerers and harlots ...
It is evident to me that you have implied there to be a difference between one who is "showbab(wayward/backsliden)" and one who is wicked in this chapter which their isn't. The particular charge against them is that they are the children of sorcerers and harlots. So if a person is the son of a sorcerer or a harlot and are not brought up in the ways of God they are wicked due to their mortal condition in bondage under sin.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-29-2010 at 03:50 PM..
The verse(Isaiah 26:9) which i quoted above clearly states that when the judgments of God are in the earth that the inhabitants of the world WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS ... If the people learn righteousness because of Gods judgments, then they must have been wicked to begin with. The bible says that the wicked do not learn righteousness when they are shown grace ... But when they are smitten by the fiery judgments of Gods wrath and when he hides his face from them they are humbled, and God heals them and restores comforts to them and they learn righteousness. This has happened in many peoples lives here on earth, when they first came to believe on Christ. He can and will accomplish the same for everyone who has ever lived before all is said and done.
It says inhabitants of the world, it is clear that all are not learning or accepting because it says the wicked will not learn.
You can deny all you want Miss Shawn ... that chapter says when the wicked are shown grace they do not learn, but when Gods judgments are in the earth they shall learn righteousness ... Anyone reading that Chapter can see it ...
Quote:
I have asked you this but you didn't answer, if you believe that God will restore them after the wicked are judged, not the same judgement of believers. Show me scripture where God is restoring them after they are judged. Revelations is very clear.
Miss Shawn i have already shown it in Isaiah chapter 57 ... You are just unable to accept it.
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I read all the bible referring to the different bible, I even looked at it in your bible, and hebrew and it says what it says.
You are obviously completely incapable of being honest with me or even yourself. You are not fooling anyone but yourself that is for sure ...
God bless, and may he open your eyes and heart to these things.
LOL, you pull that card and yet you didn't research what it says in hebrew.
And yet you look at this scripture and not understand or blindly not see what is being said. Believers who have come to God from the begining is not called wicked when he falls or backslides as you notice, the back slidder was not called wicked. Then as you read down further, the wicked of course if they are wicked they have not come to God. Why are you making this harder than it is. I am not taking anything out of context, because it is there?[/quote]
You can deny all you want Miss Shawn ... that chapter says when the wicked are shown grace they do not learn, but when Gods judgments are in the earth they shall learn righteousness ... Anyone reading that Chapter can see it ...
Miss Shawn i have already shown it in Isaiah chapter 57 ... You are just unable to accept it.
You are obviously completely incapable of being honest with me or even yourself. You are not fooling anyone but yourself that is for sure ...
God bless, and may he open your eyes and heart to these things.
LOL, you pull that card and yet you didn't research what it says in hebrew.
And yet you look at this scripture and not understand or blindly not see what is being said. Believers who have come to God from the begining is not called wicked when he falls or backslides as you notice, the back slidder was not called wicked. Then as you read down further, the wicked of course if they are wicked they have not come to God. Why are you making this harder than it is. I am not taking anything out of context, because it is there?
[/quote]
I am being very honest and very capable to see what is in scripture. If I am so wrong, you didn't show me that I was lying. I showed what was exactly in scripture. You showed nothing.
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You can deny all you want Miss Shawn ... that chapter says when the wicked are shown grace they do not learn, but when Gods judgments are in the earth they shall learn righteousness ... Anyone reading that Chapter can see it
Isaiah 26:10 Let grace be shown to the wicked, Yet he will not learn righteousness;
In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly,
And will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
And you say I am not being honest, but yet I have shown your scripture to back up everything I have said.
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You are obviously completely incapable of being honest with me or even yourself. You are not fooling anyone but yourself that is for sure ...
And yet you are saying that I am lying when I have shown to back up what I claim. I don't use one bible, that would be ignorant. I not only look at how every bible uses verses, I check it in hebrew and greek. Trust me I have to, because people twist scripture all the time. UR love to use the YLT version (I even check scripture in this version) and I even pointed out where some tried to make a claim about certain words, the hebrew and greek bible used another, and yes it was confirmed by the person who posted. I even check the bible that I use.
One person didn't understand the concept of words being translated. God said I desire mercy from the people. When you look at the verse in hebrew, God was saying I desire loyalty. So, you see, I do my research, and don't need to lie to prove a point here. There is nothing that you are saying that is making me even have to lie. All I have to do is point to what the scripture is saying.
Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 01-29-2010 at 03:20 PM..
I rest my case. You read scripture but yet don't understand simple things.
V 17 and he went on backsliding in the way of his heart. He is backsliding, which make him a backslider.
You seem to imply that there is some sort of difference between those that are "showbab"(wayward/backsliden) and the wicked. This chapter is making reference to those who are the children of sorcerers and harlots, they are in bondage to sin in their mortal condition.
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I am being very honest and very capable to see what is in scripture. If I am so wrong, you didn't show me that I was lying. I showed what was exactly in scripture. You showed nothing.
Isaiah 26:10 Let grace be shown to the wicked, Yet he will not learn righteousness;
In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly,
And will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
And you say I am not being honest, but yet I have shown your scripture to back up everything I have said.
Here it says ...
Isaiah 26:10 Let grace be shown to the wicked, Yet he will not learn righteousness;
In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly,
And will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
So long as grace is being shown to the wicked they will not learn righteousness. Only after they are judged by god will they then learn righteousness ... All people are wicked and at enmity with God, wayward in their heart and minds under bondage to sin and death. When Christ works within us he renews us through chastising us and gives to us repentance and then faith and then we believe.
Isa 26:9
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness
You seem to imply that there is some sort of difference between those that are "showbab"(wayward/backsliden) and the wicked. This chapter is making reference to those who are the children of sorcerers and harlots, they are in bondage to sin in their mortal condition.
Here it says ...
Isaiah 26:10 Let grace be shown to the wicked, Yet he will not learn righteousness;
In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly,
And will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
So long as grace is being shown to the wicked they will not learn righteousness. Only after they are judged by god will they then learn righteousness ... All people are wicked and at enmity with God, wayward in their heart and minds under bondage to sin and death. When Christ works within us he renews us through chastising us and gives to us repentance and then faith and then we believe.
Isa 26:9
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness
You say after judgement, but I asked you to show me them repenting after they are being judged. Where does it say that all those who are wicked are repenting after judgement. I would like to see scripture please?
I am about to watch a movie, so may be back later.
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