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When did i say god "WINKS" at unbelieving? You are bearing false witness against me ... Just as the pharisees bore false witness against Christ ... Nothing new.
You say it whenever you deny God's justice for those who remain in unbelief and will have to face the Judge.
You say it whenever you deny God's justice for those who remain in unbelief and will have to face the Judge.
Those who "remain in unbelief" have one common thread... their IGNORANCE of God's love. They are not fully aware.
twin.spin...
what would you do to your child if he didn't believe that you loved him?
Would you...
a. give up on him and set him on fire
b. give up on him and kill him
c. help him to understand (and yes this could mean that your child may go through difficult times, but eventually he will finally come to understand and trust in your love.)
I'm assuming you would pick C. correct? Or something similar to C.
Because if it were anything resembling a. or b. then you most assuredly did not LOVE him in the first place.
Funny how God says He loves us and "Love never ends", "Love conquers all", and let's not forget God IS Love and:
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8Love never fails.
Those who "remain in unbelief" have one common thread... their IGNORANCE of God's love. They are not fully aware.
twin.spin...
what would you do to your child if he didn't believe that you loved him?
Would you...
a. give up on him and set him on fire
b. give up on him and kill him
c. help him to understand (and yes this could mean that your child may go through difficult times, but eventually he will finally come to understand and trust in your love.)
I'm assuming you would pick C. correct? Or something similar to C.
"
Yes that is true bresides praying. However if my child doesn't have faith at death (or if the world ended) my child will be condemned....and no that doesn't please me.
Finally, the real reason for the insistence of UR is true. God not fitting into human reason.
Well it has got nothing to do with human reason , punishment means punishment if it's found in the dictionary or the bible.
What is it with fundamental christians with the word reason ? "Come let us reason together" , for some meaning reason,all,punishment,justice,judgement and a bunch of otherwords means something entirely different once you become a christian
Of cause there are different levels of punishment , yet the fundamental christian automatically assumes that everytime he see's the word punishment it means eternal torment , just like he does with the words justice ,condemnation and judgement.
Here's a perfectly clear example from the scripture
he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities Psalm 103, where is ET in this verse ?
14 David said to Gad, "I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into the hands of men."2 Sam.24
You couldn't help but think if David was living today the last 2 words of that scripture would be fundamental christian instead of men
Yes that is true bresides praying. However if my child doesn't have faith at death (or if the world ended) my child will be condemned....and no that doesn't please me.
So you have more love for your child than God does?!?
There is one thing i know for certain that when i believed it was him who brought me to salvation and not me deciding for him .No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:God's love when it's demonstrated to man is not forceful but amazingly influencing to the point where you cannot help but confess him as savior . No one can ever believe in Jesus as their Savior unless God opens their eyes to him anyway , (yes we see the awfulness of our sin when our eyes are opened to Calvary but more to the point we also see the amazing love of God), so really this takes us out of the equation because Salvation when it comes to us is solely of God .
Salvation comes to us not the other way round , just like what Romans 5 verse 6 says , just at the right time when we were still powerless..
I know, I used a passage that states that faith comes from Christ. But I keep noting the importance of faith, and you claim these people will be saved without every taking hold of the most important component of salvation as noted by Jesus, Peter, and Paul. Again, these people only believe once they are in God's presence and begin the stages of purification. Where's faith in that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
7All the people saw this and began to mutter, "He has gone to be the guest of a 'sinner.' " (so much for your comment that he cannot be in the presence of sin , it's repulsive to him) 8But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount." 9Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."Lukr 19.
Actually, you still have to explain something then. If God isn't repulsed by sin to the point that He can't bear to be with it, then why did He look away from His own Son while He was bearing the sins of the world on the cross. Jesus took on the sins of the world, and His own Father couldn't even bear to look at Him. Why else would Jesus cry out, "Father, why have you forsaken me". Good try though, but you still failed. Furthermore, you have not even been able to reconcile the passages that both Ironmaw and I used. Both support the opposite stances, yet you haven't even tried to reconcile them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
In essence what you are saying is we do the choosing , we do the seeking , when the scriptures tell us the exact opposite.
I would like to say that i believed this before i ever believed in universal reconcilation , so trying to make this a UR issue will not fly.
Scripture also says that we are justified by faith, but most of you guys seem to want to neglect that point. I posted several passages that highlight this, and you guys still want to rely on the whole aion argument even though most of the passages used may not mention of eternal torment, but that salvation came through faith alone. And I agreed with you on the part where salvation comes from God, I used a verse to show that. However, justification comes by faith alone; you presume to say that faith is of no importance for those who are to be eventually restored. They get to see and believe. Salvation comes from God, but then you want to say that our love comes solely from God that we have no will to choose. How do you reconcile what happened in the garden with Adam and Eve? How do you reconcile the fact that we all struggle in our faith whenever temptation or strife comes at us? We do have the ability to choose. I never said salvation came from man, that's God's department. But men are to have a relationship with God; we walk with Him. Relationships are based on trust, intimacy, and love; how can any of this apply if to some extent we aren't allowed to choose? Otherwise, we are just a bunch of robots; and this is a pointless relationship because me and you love Him because He programmed us to, not because we genuinely care about what Christ has done for us. Christ pulls at our hearts, but we have to answer the call.
Nero i don't think any who believe in UR believes that sin should not be punished .
But why does punishment in the mind of the christian mean eternal torment ? This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
I never said universalists didn't believe that; I noted that most, if not all, universalists believe in the process of purification after death. Again, the idea of eternal torment isn't something I conjured up, it's what I received from Scripture. Like all the passages I used, they highlight the importance of faith; some passages even highlight that Jesus comes to save only those who wait for Him. You would probably state that is referring to the initial group of believers, and does not concern those who still don't believe as they will be saved later on, according to the passages Ironmaw and sparrow put up. However, that is where revelations comes into play for me. Revelation refers to Satan and those who weren't in the Lamb's Book of Life being cast down into the lake, where the story seems to end for them there. As the story progresses, no additional mention of these people being restored to God is ever brought up. What am I suppose to do with that? It's there, and it makes no hint to the possibility of eventual restoration. Their story ends. Without additional scripture to indicate what happens to unbelievers, I can only presume that they remain in that place for eternity. It's not what I want, but it's there and I shouldn't ignore it. ET isn't my baby; I didn't presume anything. In my readings of Scripture, it has made itself very evident, at least to me.
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