Judas

[Tricky D]

In the oldest gospel of Marc (approximately 65 AD) there was no motive.
In those of Matthew (approximately 85 AD) Judas’ betrayal was for money.
In the gospel of Luke (approximately 85 AD) Judas betrayed Jesus because Satan had entered his heart.
In the gospel of John (approximately 100-120 AD) Judas is possessed by Satan.
But in the Gospel of Judas (approximately 280 AD) Judas did not betray Jesus at all ( but then again if the story is named after you, your character in the story will not be portrayed in a bad light).

According to the canonical Gospels of the New Testament, (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John), Judas betrayed Jesus to Jerusalem's Great Sanhedrin, which officiated over the crucifixion of Jesus with the endorsement of representatives of the occupying power, the Roman Empire. The Gospel of Judas, on the other hand, portrays Judas in a very different perspective than do the Gospels of the New Testament, according to a preliminary translation made in early 2006 by the National Geographic Society: the Gospel of Judas appears to interpret Judas's act not as betrayal, but rather as an act of obedience to the instructions of Jesus. This assumption is taken on the basis that Jesus required a second agent to set in motion a course of events which he had preplanned in advance. In that sense Judas acted as a catalyst. The action of Judas, then, was a pivotal point which interconnected a series of simultaneous pre-orchestrated events.Gospel of Judas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[JerZ]

The Gospel of Judas, on the other hand, portrays Judas in a very different perspective than do the Gospels of the New Testament, according to a preliminary translation made in early 2006 by the National Geographic Society: the Gospel of Judas appears to interpret Judas's act not as betrayal, but rather as an act of obedience to the instructions of Jesus. This assumption is taken on the basis that Jesus required a second agent to set in motion a course of events which he had preplanned in advance. In that sense Judas acted as a catalyst.
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Okay...well, this raises an even bigger question, to me. And it's not that would believe the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John over that of Judas; please bear in mind that I think of all of these as dramatizations...

My question regarding the bolded part above is: Why would Jesus even need Judas to "betray" him in order to wind up being arrested and crucified? Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, Jesus was in the public eye anywhere from 15 months to 3 years before being crucified. He was right there. You couldn't miss him. He could have been snatched up and taken away at any time. He and his disciples sometimes had lodging, sometimes slept in the outdoors (as in the garden of Gethsemane). They didn't skulk around and hide. They hung out with just about every type of person it was possible to hang around with at that time and in that place.

The argument could be, "Well, they wanted to do it secretly so as not to have any trouble. So they couldn't just snatch him off the Mount or what-have-you." Okay...so they couldn't have followed him after a sermon? Quietly? In all that time...a bare minimum of a little over a year, but a maximum according to one Gospel reckoning of three years...there wasn't a single occasion where they could have taken him away?

All four books of the NT read as if Jesus were open and right out there and was just wandering around all over the place, not seeking out safe places specifically, not seeking out protective people or anything like that. Then all of a sudden, WHAM, there's this whole big conspiracy where Judas must be bought for 30 piece of silver by the ruling religious class amid much soul-searching and shirt-tearing by Judas, even down to Judas having to identify Jesus with the kiss (ummmmmmmmmmmm...these people, who had been apparently involved in this big huge plot to seek out and court one disciple and buy him off and all that wouldn't have know what Jesus looked like? Puh-lease). All this secrecy and scuttling around for a dude who stood there in the public eye for three years and could have been followed any of those days. Any of them. But they "needed" Judas?

I had never actually thought about all this before...so I don't know why it's spilling out now. I mean I thought about the whole story of Judas, obviously (which is why I asked the original question). But I never really realized how I, and apparently about a bajillion other people over the past 1,975 years or so, managed to overlook that fact that nobody "needed" Judas. Nobody in this entire story. Think about it. Did Jesus "need" someone to turn him in to the authorities? Hardly; he could have walked in himself. Couldn't he? Did Ciaphas (sp?) "need" Judas to show him where Jesus was? Please, someone that sneaky and controlling and immoral couldn't hire someone to just follow the apostles to the garden of Gethsemane? For that matter, he couldn't have just had Jesus arrested in the normal way, crowd or not? That's just silly. And last of all, of course...what, Judas needed the money??? If Judas were that incredibly materialistic that he would literally sell a dear friend for money, it's doubtful he would have followed a man of Jesus' character at all.

I'm really leaning at this point toward thinking that the Judas story was thrown in there for dramatic impact. There was probably a Jesus, and he probably preached, and people probably followed him around a bit, but the rest just kind of reads like Braveheart. You know...find out a few facts and build an entire story around them that you hope might fit, at least to the common goon watching or reading.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by JerZ

My question regarding the bolded part above is: Why would Jesus even need Judas to "betray" him in order to wind up being arrested and crucified? Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, Jesus was in the public eye anywhere from 15 months to 3 years before being crucified. He was right there. You couldn't miss him. He could have been snatched up and taken away at any time. He and his disciples sometimes had lodging, sometimes slept in the outdoors (as in the garden of Gethsemane). They didn't skulk around and hide. They hung out with just about every type of person it was possible to hang around with at that time and in that place.

Probably because of political reasons. At that time Jesus was popular by the people.
I don't know if you've seen the movie The last temptation of Christ which is fictional, but in that story Judas was portrayed as a militant Jew who wanted to get rid of the Roman oppressors. It could be that Judas wanted to use Jesus for his cause to free Israel. But when he realised that Jesus as a pacifist would never allowed himself to be used for a violent uprising, Judas decided to betray Jesus to force his people to rebel violently.

[Healthy person]

Was Judas perhaps the most important desciple - having been chosen by Jesus for a role that would bring about the events as predicted by earlier prophets _ I believe Jesus arranged the events because he really did believe that the events needed to occur to bring about the Kingdom.

[Travelling fella]

Originally Posted by jeffncandace

Well, I sorta just posted a thread in this vein (Eeevil? The Fru-its...). I personally think that Judas was playing the part that God had for him to play. I believe he will end up in heaven, but then again, I should disclose that I'm a Christian Universalist.

I believe Judas is in heaven now too (universalist here too)

[ShanaBrown]

I had never actually thought about all this before...so I don't know why it's spilling out now. I mean I thought about the whole story of Judas, obviously (which is why I asked the original question). But I never really realized how I, and apparently about a bajillion other people over the past 1,975 years or so, managed to overlook that fact that nobody "needed" Judas. Nobody in this entire story. Think about it.

I believe that this is the way that God designed it. (Acts 2) He chose who He wanted to betray Jesus and He has His reasons. Jesus could have been snatched up or He could have turned Himself in but that wasn't the plan of God. God Himself delivered Jesus up according to what He predetermined. God bless.

[nancy thereader]

But, why, do you think was it arranged that exact way? Was it to teach us about betrayal and redemption? And, what does that say about the free will of people who lived then? Were they merely actors in a pre-ordained play?

[ShanaBrown]

But, why, do you think was it arranged that exact way? Was it to teach us about betrayal and redemption? And, what does that say about the free will of people who lived then? Were they merely actors in a pre-ordained play?

Hi Nancy, that's a good question. We know that fulfillment of prophecy pointed to who Jesus was. Maybe God was trying to teach us something and maybe He was trying to teach Judas something. I don't know, but I don't believe that we have free will. From our perspective it looks like we do but in the scriptures there are examples of where God interferes with or influences our wills to bring about His purposes. God bless.

[Christian Warrior]

Romans 9:21 "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

Jesus died to pay the price of sin for all peoples. Heb 9:22 "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

Suicide is not acceptable. So, it is required that Jesus be murdered. For this to happen, someone must come against Him.

Note also that God warns us rather secretively, so that only those who are seeking diligently will find what God wants us to have, and to know. Hidden in this story is how the world will be betrayed in this time, the end time.

Judas was the treasurer of Jesus' group. Today, the world is betrayed by rich, elite bankers. These same bankers, like Judas, have the spirit of Satan in their hearts.

Judas first hung himself. Later, his already dead and bloated body fell from a cart and burst open, spilling his intestines.

Judas went to Hell. He will never escape there. Here is a link to an excellent summary: [url=http://www.carm.org/doctrine/hell.htm]Hell[/url]

and a bit from the above link:

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2] "There are some Christian groups and many cults that deny the idea that hell, in the general sense, means eternal, conscious punishment. Some maintain that God's eternal punishment is annihilation, or non-existence. Others say it is temporal and that eventually all will be saved out of hell. Perhaps the most common objection is that a loving God would never punish people in eternal torment. We agree that God is love ([URL="http://www.carm.org/kjv/1John/1John_4.htm#is%201"]1 John 4:8[/URL]), but He is also just ([URL="http://www.carm.org/kjv/Neh/Neh_9.htm#No"]Neh. 9:32-33[/URL]; [URL="http://www.carm.org/kjv/2Thess/2Thess_1.htm#1%C2%A0"]2 Thess. 1:6[/URL]), and eternal ([URL="http://www.carm.org/kjv/Psalms/Psalm_90.htm#1"]Psalm 90:2[/URL]; [URL="http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Tim/1Tim_1.htm#16"]1 Tim. 1:17[/URL] ). God punishes the evil doer ([URL="http://www.carm.org/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_11.htm#12%C2%A0"]Isaiah 11:13[/URL]) and this punishment will be eternal. But the question remains. Is this eternal punishment conscious or not? "[/SIZE][/FONT]

[ShanaBrown]

Jesus died to pay the price of sin for all peoples.

Hi, do you believe that Jesus paid the price for Judas also? Did Jesus pay the price for vessels of dishonor? Did Judas really have a choice in the matter? Does God see beginning to end? If Judas did not have a choice and if he went to an eternal hell, how then is God called His Savior? God bless.