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What I find disturbing in Matt 10:28 is having your body and mind/personality destroyed and spending eternity as a conscious spirit in eternal darkness or a lake of fire.
BINGO!
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I have always viewed eternity in hell/lake of fire or just-plain-old seperated from God as a bad thing, but this ^^^concept is especially haunting (pun intended).
What I find disturbing in Matt 10:28 is having your body and mind/personality destroyed and spending eternity as a conscious spirit in eternal darkness or a lake of fire.
I have always viewed eternity in hell/lake of fire or just-plain-old seperated from God as a bad thing, but this ^^^concept is especially haunting (pun intended).
Actually, the unbeliever is resurrected out of Hades at the end of the Millennium and in resurrected body is then thrown into the lake of fire as per Revelation 20:11-15. The destruction previously described applies to the soul and resurrected body of the unbeliever.
The reality of what awaits the one who dies without Christ is sobering and should cause one to give serious thought concerning the greatest decision he will ever make in his life. To believe in Jesus Christ for eternal salvation or reject Christ and be lost forever. It is an individual choice that each must make.
First, it is not a mistranslation. It is the original Greek that states this. It is easily verifiable.
Second, there is no contradiction. The supposed contradiction lies only in the mind of those who will not understand that God OFFERS eternal salvation to mankind. He does not force it.
LOL! Yea, God does not force it, like Saul getting knocked off his horse by the blinding light of the resurrected Christ! Try telling that to Saul who became Paul. I'm glad God forced His salvation on me. He chose me before the foundation of the world (where the he-double toothpicks is that free on my part?) And He says that those He calls these He justifies and whom He justifies these He glorifies. Where's the free choice in that? Are you saying I chose before I was born to be chosen before I was born?
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The issue is clearly stated in the following passage.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
The 'Whosoever' is any member of the human race who as the passage says, 'BELIEVES IN HIM.'
Dear Mike, is it possible that you are reading into "whosoever" the idea of "whoever chooses of their own free will apart from God's salvific power to save them"? If that is the case, your ideal is palpably wrong.
The "whosoever believes" is first of all chosen by God to be believing and secondly given the grace to be believing and thirdly given the faith (such faith literally put within the individual which was not resident before).
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There are many passages in the New Testament that state the a person must believe in or have faith in Christ in order to be saved.
The issue is man's free will with regard to whether or not he desires to receive the offer of the free gift of salvation.
Ah, there's the rub . . . "man's free will." I see where you are coming from. You chose. Moderator cut: rude
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Jesus is the Savior of all men in that he went to the Cross to pay the penalty for the sins of the world. It does not mean that all men are automatically saved apart from faith in Christ. Nor does it mean that everyone will believe in Christ after death.
Actually the Bible says Jesus ransomed all and that due to that "God will have all mankind (lit. all humans) to be saved (see 1 Timothy 2:4-6 if you don't believe me). The Bible is quite clear that one who has been ransomed must be freed! I know you don't believe this even though it is in the bible. But some day you will because God says He will save all mankind and bring them (and that includes you) into a realization of the truth!
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Christ went to the Cross in order to make salvation possible for those who want it. Eternal salvation in not imposed on anyone.
Thank you for the pagan Christian babblespeak. Actually, the Bible says no such thing. He went to the cross and stripped off the old humanity and all humanity was entombe with Him. "2Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ is constraining us, judging this, that, if One died for the sake of all, consequently all died." (Rom 6:7 for one who dies has been justified from Sin.)
Eonian life is given only to those who were set for it prior to their being born Act 13:48 "Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian."
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The justice of God demands that in order to be saved, man must avail himself of the means by which God has offered salvation. Through faith in Christ.
The justice of God demands that since Christ ransomed all mankind that God will save all mankind (1 tim.2:4-6). And they will believe because they have been ransomed.
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Matthew 10:28
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is one of the warnings from Jesus Christ Himself who spoke of the consequences of rejecting Him as Savior.
Here is how the 'New Greek/English interlinear New Testament UBS 4th edition, Nestle-Aland 26th editon' puts it.
Matt. 10:28 DO NOT BE AFRAID OF THE ONES KILLING THE BODY, BUT~THE SOUL NOT BEING ABLE TO KILL. BUT FEAR INSTEAD THE ONE BEING ABLE BOTH SOUL AND BODY TO DESTROY IN GEHENNA(HELL).
And in the same passage Mat 10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it."
So if one's soul is destroyed in Gehenna eventually they will be finding it for Christ ransomed all mankind and you know the Bible says that all who are ransomed must be freed no ifs ands of buts about it.
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See now the many translations that all translated the passage the same, using either the word 'hell' or 'gehenna' as the place where God destroys both body and soul.
In the original Greek and in the various translations, it's all the same. A warning from Christ to fear Him (God) who can destroy both body and soul in -gehenna-hell-the lake of fire. And the definition of 'destruction' has already been given.
The Scriptures are crystal clear in their meaning; that those who reject Christ as Savior will spend eternity separated from God in the place described as the lake of fire, among other descriptions.
The bible is quite clear that those who reject Christ were never chosen by God to be believing in the first place, were never set for life eonian so they could believe and in fact God made it so they could not believe. So now you are going to tell me God is going to send people to some sort of eternal torment because He made it so they not only would not but could not believe? Moderator cut: personal insult
Last edited by Miss Blue; 05-05-2010 at 11:37 AM..
God knows past present and future therfore He knows the outcome of everyones life before they even enter this world-now if He knows that they will make a mistake that will cost them an eternity in this horrible place then do you think that He would send us here in the first place----well obviosly we are here so obviously this place dosent exist-simple logic-
God knows past present and future therfore He knows the outcome of everyones life before they even enter this world-now if He knows that they will make a mistake that will cost them an eternity in this horrible place then do you think that He would send us here in the first place----well obviosly we are here so obviously this place dosent exist-simple logic-
Yes, obviously. Especially considering that GOD IS LOVE. I enjoyed your concise version of logic here. And I also appreciate very much Eusbius's long and more cumbersome answer in that he takes the time to explain why UR is the only thing that makes all the scriptures work together.
I grew up believing ET (at least in my head). But I never could accept it into my heart. There was always something in my heart that knew it was immoral. And eventually I got to the point of thinking God must be evil. Well, that was a horrible place to be spiritually! I now think that is the place of outer darkness - when one feels there is NO HOPE, but is NOT AN ATHEIST.
I'm so glad that God delivered my soul from death when it pleased Him to do so! I could have died in that horrible spiritual state had there not been obedient Christians out there waiting to share God's true message of love with me.
Just adding... Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Romans 11:31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.
The song..I Can Only Imagine...What did Noah, Moses, David, Paul, Peter,(just a few) see? The Potter!
LOL! Yea, God does not force it, like Saul getting knocked off his horse by the blinding light of the resurrected Christ! Try telling that to Saul who became Paul. I'm glad God forced His salvation on me. He chose me before the foundation of the world (where the he-double toothpicks is that free on my part?) And He says that those He calls these He justifies and whom He justifies these He glorifies. Where's the free choice in that? Are you saying I chose before I was born to be chosen before I was born?
God did not force Paul to believe in Christ. God had alway known that Paul would believe in Christ when confronted by the vision of Christ on the Damascus road. This is in contrast to all those who in the Millennium will NOT believe in Christ despite the fact that He will be physically present on the earth reigning from the throne of David. It is these unbelievers who will be deceived by Satan when he is released from his imprisonment at the end of the Millennium.
God knew from eternity past who would believe in Christ and in so knowing He chose them.
An analogy is this. Imagine a platoon of solders standing in formation. The commanding officer comes out and stands in front of them. He says to them, men, I am looking for volunteers for a mission. I won't order anyone to go on this mission, but I want whoever volunteers to take one step forward. Let's say that out of the platoon of 30 soldiers, 4 decide to volunteer and so they take one step forward. Seeing them step forward, the commanding officer points to each one of them and says, I choose you, you, you, and you.
Analogies only go so far. God knew in His foreknowledge which is that aspect of His omniscience that deals with believers, who would place their faith in Christ for salvation. He chose from eternity past those who He knew would believe in Christ. God is not bound by time.
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Dear Mike, is it possible that you are reading into "whosoever" the idea of "whoever chooses of their own free will apart from God's salvific power to save them"? If that is the case, your ideal is palpably wrong.
The "whosoever believes" is first of all chosen by God to be believing and secondly given the grace to be believing and thirdly given the faith (such faith literally put within the individual which was not resident before).
Those who are chosen was explained above. God does not give faith. He gives the Gospel message so that the hearer may understand the issue in salvation and decide whether he wants to receive the gift of salvation by placing his faith in Christ.
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Ah, there's the rub . . . "man's free will." I see where you are coming from. You chose. Now rub your little chest with your knuckles and proudly exclaim: "I chose and that makes me better than all you evil people of the world!"
Man exists to resolve the angelic conflict. Man's free will is the most basic issue in the angelic conflict.
Actually the Bible says Jesus ransomed all and that due to that "God will have all mankind (lit. all humans) to be saved (see 1 Timothy 2:4-6 if you don't believe me). The Bible is quite clear that one who has been ransomed must be freed! I know you don't believe this even though it is in the bible. But some day you will because God says He will save all mankind and bring them (and that includes you) into a realization of the truth!
Jesus Christ paid the penalty for every sin in the human race thus taking sin out of the way as an issue in salvation. The issue is will you step over the line where the barrier of sin used to be by believing in Christ for salvation. Christ died for all. Not all will choose to place their faith in Christ to receive the free gift of salvation.
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Thank you for the pagan Christian babblespeak. Actually, the Bible says no such thing. He went to the cross and stripped off the old humanity and all humanity was entombe with Him. "2Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ is constraining us, judging this, that, if One died for the sake of all, consequently all died." (Rom 6:7 for one who dies has been justified from Sin.)
2 Cor. 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died (all were dead in sin). Christ died for the sins of the world.
2 Cor. 5:15 And He died for all (the entire human race) that they who live (Those and ONLY those who have believed in Christ for eternal salvation) should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old self (the old sin nature) was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin;
Romans 6:7 For he who has died is freed from sin. The believer and ONLY the believer in Christ is identified with Christ in His death, burial, resurrection and acension. This is retroactive and current positional truth. It has to do with being positionally sanctified as a result of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The old sin nature is positionally dead, but not experientially dead.
Eonian life is given only to those who were set for it prior to their being born Act 13:48 "Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian."
It's eternal life, not eonian life and it is given to all who ask for it.
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The justice of God demands that since Christ ransomed all mankind that God will save all mankind (1 tim.2:4-6). And they will believe because they have been ransomed.
Already explained above. Christ died for all, but not all will believe in Christ for eternal salvation.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Eternal salvation is offered to all, but not all will accept it. In fact, most will not.
The life is eternal life because it is God's very own life which is eternal.
It technically is 'everlasting life' in the sense that it is given to the believer at the moment he believes in Christ for salvation. In other words, the believer receives at the moment of faith in Christ, the eternal life of God the Father. And he has that eternal life throughout eternity future.
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And in the same passage Mat 10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it."
This passage is in reference to the believer who picks up his cross and follows Christ as opposed to the believer who puts the affairs of his life ahead of his relationship with God. It is the difference between one who is a believer and a believer who is also a disciple. In other words, it is talking about a believer who is advancing in his spiritual life. It has absolutely Nothing to do with the person who has died without believing in Christ for salvation. It has nothing to do with the destruction of the unbeliever in the lake of fire.
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So if one's soul is destroyed in Gehenna eventually they will be finding it for Christ ransomed all mankind and you know the Bible says that all who are ransomed must be freed no ifs ands of buts about it.
Already addressed above. The destruction, not a cessation of existence but a state of utter ruin and uselessness in conscious torment in the eternal fire, is ETERNAL.
The bible is quite clear that those who reject Christ were never chosen by God to be believing in the first place, were never set for life eonian so they could believe and in fact God made it so they could not believe. So now you are going to tell me God is going to send people to some sort of eternal torment because He made it so they not only would not but could not believe? Mike, for crying out loud, quit this pagan christian psychobabble![/quote]
Already addressed. God chose those who He knew were going to believe in Christ. God desires for all men to be saved. But all men are not saved. As a result of rejecting the means by which they may be saved, through faith in Christ, the justice of God MUST leave them in the state of condemnation in which they were born into the world with. And therefore they must spend eternity in the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41,46.
Universalism is built on a misunderstanding of the passages that are used to support it. It is a false doctrine that is adhered to by those who prefer their emotional subjective feelings instead of the hard objective and absolute truth of the scriptures.
Last edited by Michael Way; 05-03-2010 at 09:06 PM..
So now you are going to tell me God is going to send people to some sort of eternal torment because He made it so they not only would not but could not believe? Mike, for crying out loud, quit this pagan christian psychobabble!
That view is very sick and twisted that God would knit someone together in the mother's womb, knowing full well that they would live on earth for a few years and then he would set them on fire for eternity. Satan might come up with a scheme like that, much not Love Himself.
2 Cor. 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died (all were dead in sin). Christ died for the sins of the world.
2 Cor. 5:15 And He died for all (the entire human race) that they who live (Those and ONLY those who have believed in Christ for eternal salvation) should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
Since when is it alright to switch subjects like that?
THEY who LIVE are the same ALL (all humans live).
"Him who died on THEIR (the all he died for) behalf" is the same ALL he died for in the first part. There is no subject switch here.
The words in Blue that you added is not merited by the context or the verse alone. How can you not see that you are adding that in there?
God did not force Paul to believe in Christ. God had alway known that Paul would believe in Christ when confronted by the vision of Christ on the Damascus road. This is in contrast to all those who in the Millennium will NOT believe in Christ despite the fact that He will be physically present on the earth reigning from the throne of David. It is these unbelievers who will be deceived by Satan when he is released from his imprisonment at the end of the Millennium.
God knew from eternity past who would believe in Christ and in so knowing He chose them.
That is an unscriptural term "eternity past." What happened? Did that eternity end and will another eternity begin? LOL!
You don't really believe what you wrote in the first paragraph because you believe everyone has a free will and a choice to make if they will be saved or not.
"It is not of him who is willing . . . but of God" (Romans 9)
God either gives grace to be believing or He does not. God either opens eyes or He does not. God either opens understanding to the gospel or He does not. God uses Satan to blind humanity. If eternal torment is true God is the one who should be eternally tormented for keeping people from believing. Good thing there is no such thing as eternal torment!
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An analogy is this. Imagine a platoon of solders standing in formation. The commanding officer comes out and stands in front of them. He says to them, men, I am looking for volunteers for a mission. I won't order anyone to go on this mission, but I want whoever volunteers to take one step forward. Let's say that out of the platoon of 30 soldiers, 4 decide to volunteer and so they take one step forward. Seeing them step forward, the commanding officer points to each one of them and says, I choose you, you, you, and you.
A better analogy is this: God is in charge of His universe and He has chosen just so many people for eonian life. So He says I choose you, you, you, and you.
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Analogies only go so far. God knew in His foreknowledge which is that aspect of His omniscience that deals with believers, who would place their faith in Christ for salvation. He chose from eternity past those who He knew would believe in Christ. God is not bound by time.
That doesn't make sense that He chose certain people He knew would believe in Christ. The truth is, He chose certain people TO BE IN CHRIST before the disruption of the world.
Eph 1:4 "according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight,
God doesn't just see the future, He makes the future happen by declaring it to be so.
Isa 46:10 "Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying, `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.'"
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Those who are chosen was explained above. God does not give faith. He gives the Gospel message so that the hearer may understand the issue in salvation and decide whether he wants to receive the gift of salvation by placing his faith in Christ.
Rom 12:3 For I am saying, through the grace which is given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to be overweening, beyond what your disposition must be, but to be of a sane disposition, as God parts to each the measure of faith."
Eph 2:8 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present,
Phi 1:29 "for to you it is graciously granted, for Christ's sake, not only to be believing on Him, but to be suffering for His sake also,"
"believe" and "faith" use the same Greek word. "It is graciously granted to be having faith on Him." So we didn't have the faith prior to Him giving it to us.
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Man exists to resolve the angelic conflict. Man's free will is the most basic issue in the angelic conflict.
God's will through the cross of Christ is what will resolve all conflicts.
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Jesus Christ paid the penalty for every sin in the human race thus taking sin out of the way as an issue in salvation. The issue is will you step over the line where the barrier of sin used to be by believing in Christ for salvation. Christ died for all. Not all will choose to place their faith in Christ to receive the free gift of salvation.
More christian babble.
Christ died for all. All sins have been died for. God does not choose everyone in this life to believe for eonian life (life pertaining to the coming eons). God chooses just so many to believe. Believing does not make Christ die for us. Believing just allows us to rejoice in what He has done.
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Universalism is built on a misunderstanding of the passages that are used to support it. It is a false doctrine that is adhered to by those who prefer their emotional subjective feelings instead of the hard objective and absolute truth of the scriptures.
Not really. We understand 1 Timothy 2:4-6 perfectly and don't need emotional subjective feelings about those passages.
Just how much does one need to read into this:
"God will have all mankind to be saved, because Christ ransomed all" (1 Timothy 2:4-6). Just believe it. Don't explain it away.
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