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I fathom the character of Jesus, don't you? He was the spitting image of the God you serve yet you say it can't be understood? Interesting. I would think that if you can't understand something then how can you determine if it is true or not?
I find it suspect when any religion says one must believe in what one can never understand... sounds like Koresh.
Resorting to insults huh??
Do YOU have a book to interperate for me??
Yea I didn't think so!!
Why such contempt for Mr. Koresh??
I dare universalists to interperate a book from the bible to be proven it is a false belief and now I am being insulted!!
So much for love huh??
DALE
P.S. I was only giving Phazel a little crap, and you go and ruin it for universalism. We were both being sarcastic. He knows it. I know it. But I did not lie when I said I have respect for him!!!!!!
Last edited by ALMOST2L8; 05-20-2010 at 08:55 AM..
That tells me that the Holy Spirit is within us directing our steps to walk as our Lord and savior Jesus Christ walked. Sinless!! Which means we should all turn from our sins, because we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But if you repent and turn away from sin you will truly be walking with Christ!!!
GOD BLESS!!!
DALE
Agreed - but the goal is to live as the Son lived by the Father. "Abiding" as a branch abides in the vine (John 15) is literally having the life of the Source enabling you to live - and in this case, having Him to cause you to please Him - remember, He is sovereign.
In Him we live and move, and have our being (Acts 17:28) - that's different from an external, tethered relationship.
24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
ONLY to those who BELIEVE in Jesus Christ have their sins blotted out as a divine gift, justified (that is, counted just, or sinless) by grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. ONLY the sinner who puts his trust in Christ Jesus...His blood pays the debt that the sinner owes to justice. Since Christ, the sinless One, has suffered for sin, God will accept his [Christ's] suffering for the debt of those who love and trust in him in obedience to His commandments.
25 Whom [Jesus Christ] God hath [forordained] set forth to be [our Mercy Seat, where the believer meets God who comes to us THEN in tender mercy to declare his righteousness, to show it to us, in bestowing righteousness upon us IN FORGIVING OUR PAST SINS. This forgiveness is the righteousness WITHOUT LAW predicted by the Law and the Prophets.] a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the [passing over] remission of sins that are PAST, [it is the sins that were comitted "BEFORE receiving the Lord as Savior" by one, that Jesus' blood covers...ONLY!!!] through the forebearance [His patient and enduring nature] of God;
those sins which we committed when we were his enemies...BEFORE we received Him as our Savior!!!...all the sins ANTECEDENT TO THEIR BELIEVING!!!
antecedentadj. Going before; preceding; prior. --n. 1. One that precedes. 2. Any occurance or event prior to another. 3. Plural. One's ancestors, ancestry, OR PAST LIFE!!!
!!!!!!But if, as some teach, God never was offended, then there was no need of this propitiation. And, if so, Christ died in vain!!!!!! GOD FORBID!!!!!! You false teacher's of this false doctrine...YOU blaspheme God!!!!!!
His righteousness is upon all them that believe...only!
26 To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the Justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Christ has paid the penalty for all who are FOUND in him...ONLY!
The attribute [the identifying quality of God's character] of justice must be kept intact; and intact it is kept, if there was a real process of punishment on our Saviour...and INDEED there was!!!
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Paul is saying, "Where is the boasting then of the Jew against the Gentile? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay - This would have left room for boasting. But by "the law of faith" - Since this requires all, Jew and Gentile alike, to seek as guilty and helpless sinners, to the free mercy of God in Christ. "The law of faith" is that divine constitution which makes faith, not works, the condition of acceptance.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
No man is justified by the deeds of the law (no article before law in the Greek), but by the faith that brings a true believer into loving OBEDIENCE to Christ...in the keeping of the Ten Commandments of God.
...but all, without difference, by faith only...and YET!!! (VERSE 31 FOLLOWING...)...THE LAW IS NOT!!! ...NOT!!!...NOT!!!...ABOLISHED!!!
29 Is He the God of the Jews only? is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Paul is stating here that, "If justification depended upon the law of Moses, then God would be a Savior to the Jews only. Again, if he would save the Jews after one manner, and the Gentiles after another, he would not be consistent."
It was because the Jews had the "oracles"...or..."The Law of God'" written before them, on paper, and the Gentiles did not...where is the justice in that? So, by the Jews having the written oracles,"THE LAW" of God before them...made them "feel" as if they were "in a better "place" to know what needed to be "DONE" in order to be obedient...therefore they had room to boast before the Gentiles, who did not have the written oracles, "The Law" of God to look upon...they had it written upon their hearts...the same Law...only not written upon a scroll...but upon their hearts!!...THE SAME LAW!!!!!!!!
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision [the circumcised = the Jews] by faith, and uncircumcision [the uncircumcised = the Gentiles] through faith.
They are all, Jews and Gentiles, justified by faith, a faith not in God, whom they already acknowledged, but a faith in Christ, God manifest in the flesh.
31Do we then make void the law through faith? [NO!!!] GOD FORBID!!!: yea, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.
I dare universalists to interperate a book from the bible to be proven it is a false belief and now I am being insulted!!
So much for love huh??
DALE
P.S. I was only giving Phazel a little crap, and you go and ruin it for universalism. We were both being sarcastic. He knows it. I know it. But I did not lie when I said I have respect for him!!!!!!
The disdain was for Koresh's use of persuasion by claiming they could not understand so they were to just follow his lead...which was obviously (looking back) not such a good thing. I don't remember insulting you.. perhaps I am getting old.
I was simply stating my opinion about the christian idea that God is unknowable. Fact is that no one would have eternal life (knowing God and his son) if God's character cannot be understood. When I meet someone I judge their character by the actions they perform. Don't you? The same way we can look at scripture's description of Christ's character and see God's character. The apostles seemed to have a good idea of God's character... God is Love. Therefore I cannot see why you say God's character cannot be understood...
I am sorry you found my post to be unloving and feel that I insulted someone, perhaps even you.. That certainly was not my intention.
Personally... I find any religion suspect that tells people to believe but yet they will never truly understand.
The wrath of God remains on a person in order to bring about their correction.
Religion often humanizes God so that he is more familiar, rather then recognizing how Gods nature of LOVE that is ALWAYS present and WRATH work together.
So this teaching has some truth, Universalists that claim no one will be accountable for wrong doing are in error, however, that error has no bearing on Gods power and declaration for what he will do for all mankind.
So we should really be more specific in our efforts to expose a flawed idea. No one escapes Gods judgment, however, LOVE, brings it all into perspective. If perfect love casts out all fear, then what of God should we be concerned with.
The truth is simple, we reap what we sow. Gods declaration of salvation does not prevent us from heaping misery upon ourselves or others and whether you want to believe it or not, there is accountability there. It is not scriptural to make the connection to accountability and eternal damnation.
The fear mongering of some horrid doom has not stopped one Christian from sinning because they act like Adam thinking that the depths of their heart is not seen by God, but produce the outward evidence that others see and think they have followed Gods law. I do not need to accuse anyone of anything specific, the human condition of the most revered Christian is the same, denying it doesn;t change a thing. Declaring your sinless and have done nothing to be accountable for when you die under this paradigm is delusional.
This has nothing to do with universalism vs ET, it is a scriptural fact, however, the lie is that those who believe even one person can be damned forever has actually escaped it themselves. If judgment by God equates to being damned to a place called hell for all eternity, no one escapes it.
The disdain was for Koresh's use of persuasion by claiming they could not understand so they were to just follow his lead...which was obviously (looking back) not such a good thing. I don't remember insulting you.. perhaps I am getting old.
I was simply stating my opinion about the christian idea that God is unknowable. Fact is that no one would have eternal life (knowing God and his son) if God's character cannot be understood. When I meet someone I judge their character by the actions they perform. Don't you? The same way we can look at scripture's description of Christ's character and see God's character. The apostles seemed to have a good idea of God's character... God is Love. Therefore I cannot see why you say God's character cannot be understood...
I am sorry you found my post to be unloving and feel that I insulted someone, perhaps even you.. That certainly was not my intention.
Personally... I find any religion suspect that tells people to believe but yet they will never truly understand.
I am happy to hear that you did not "intend" to insult me, but when you put my beliefs (following the ten commandments with all my heart, mind, and soul) in comprison with a man who preached killing and suicide. I am in turn insulted!! You do not remember doing that??
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our [Abraham is the father of believers ONLY!...so...Paul is speaking to BELIEVERS ONLY!!!] father, as pertaining to the flesh [works], hath found?
To All, [BELIEVING] Jews and Gentiles alike, Righteousness WILL BE IMPUTED, Who Have Abraham's Faith.
Do we say that Abraham found acceptance with God according to his works?...according to his failure at times in his obedience, and in his faith in the years before the "call" upon his life by God...he believed...and was THEN (upon the "call" of God on his life) saved by grace, through faith, even as others...meaning us "believers" as well...IN THE SAME MANNER.
Pardoned people are the ONLY bessed people.
Abraham...our [believer's ONLY!] spiritual forefather, who walked in OBEDIENT faith, is our example! The seal of the Holy Spirit in our sanctification, making us new creatures [who now walk in OBEDIENT faith as did Abraham], is the inward evidence of the righteousness of faith.
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
If he had been justified by works, there would have been room for him to boast...which must be excluded forever!
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Paul is saying to them [the believer's] whom he is teaching..."Look in your oracles there, written before you!...READ IT! Genesis 15:6! what does it say?...' Abraham believed, and this was counted to him for righteousness!' "
4 Now to him that worketh is reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Paul is stating here that "If Abraham had merited righteousness by the perfection of his obedience, then it would not have been by the grace of God, but Abraham could have demanded it with much confidence! But this cannot be, for it is impossible for much more guilty man, to make God a debtor to him."...
...For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counselor? (Rom. 11:35).
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Him [God] that justifieth him [the one living in "obedient faith"] that was BEFORE [BEFORE GOD's CALL UPON HIS LIFE] ungodly. His former ungodliness did not prevent him from being justified before God upon his believing.
...SO MUCH FOR "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED!"...SO MUCH FOR "ONE CANNOT LOSE THEIR SALVATION!!!"
Him that justifieth the ungodly, that is, him that was before ungodly.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.
Paul speaks of Psalms 32:1...where David speaks of the remission of sins.
Paul concludes that it is the imputing of righteousness without works and the blessedness of that...that blessed are they to whom God has umputed His righteousness...."they" being the UNDEFILED in the way!...blessed is the man that walketh NOT IN THE COUNSEL OF THE WICKED!/UNGODLY!...God's design is to show the characters of THOSE that are blessed!!!...Pardoned people are the only blessed people.
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Which makes it wholly a gracious act of God!...Not dealing with us [obedient faither's] as we have deserved, we are not entered into judgment,we are not marked with our "PRIOR!" iniquities...but with pure acts of grace from a loving, just God!...the acceptance and the reward cannot be expected as debts.
The attitudes of the world are, "Those that are happy are those that have no debts on their properties to man; but the Word of God is: "Those that are happy are those who's debts to God, have been erased!...removed! O how much therefore should it be of the UTMOST importance...to BE ASSURED that our sins are pardoned! For this is the foundation of all other benefits...
...For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. (Heb. 8:12). <<<<IN CONTEXT!!!!!
...to be continued.
In Christ's love...In His truth...Thank You precious Lord for Your guidance. Verna.
The wrath of God remains on a person in order to bring about their correction.
Religion often humanizes God so that he is more familiar, rather then recognizing how Gods nature of LOVE that is ALWAYS present and WRATH work together.
So this teaching has some truth, Universalists that claim no one will be accountable for wrong doing are in error, however, that error has no bearing on Gods power and declaration for what he will do for all mankind.
So we should really be more specific in our efforts to expose a flawed idea. No one escapes Gods judgment, however, LOVE, brings it all into perspective. If perfect love casts out all fear, then what of God should we be concerned with.
The truth is simple, we reap what we sow. Gods declaration of salvation does not prevent us from heaping misery upon ourselves or others and whether you want to believe it or not, there is accountability there. It is not scriptural to make the connection to accountability and eternal damnation.
The fear mongering of some horrid doom has not stopped one Christian from sinning because they act like Adam thinking that the depths of their heart is not seen by God, but produce the outward evidence that others see and think they have followed Gods law. I do not need to accuse anyone of anything specific, the human condition of the most revered Christian is the same, denying it doesn;t change a thing. Declaring your sinless and have done nothing to be accountable for when you die under this paradigm is delusional.
This has nothing to do with universalism vs ET, it is a scriptural fact, however, the lie is that those who believe even one person can be damned forever has actually escaped it themselves. If judgment by God equates to being damned to a place called hell for all eternity, no one escapes it.
I respect this ^^^^
As I have said before, you are very intellectual and I truly do respect your opinion. But again, Verna, and myself DO NOT believe in eternal torment. The problem lies with some kind of judgement system. Where, just because we believe in eternal seperation (death) from God for the wicked, we are condemning others. When it is the exact opposite we actually condemn our ownselves and realized that God's plan is for a perfect saint in all of us!! We do not focus on the negative, but the positive. And it is the positives of all that can be positive!! That WE CAN turn from sin, and face God as a born again perfect creation!! Now that is Good news!! How could it get any better than that!!! Could you imagine if everyone were to accomplish this?? It would truly be exactly what you believe Universal Reconciliation, only we wouldn't have to wait until the next life to get it!!!
As I have said before, you are very intellectual and I truly do respect your opinion. But again, Verna, and myself DO NOT believe in eternal torment. The problem lies with some kind of judgement system. Where, just because we believe in eternal seperation (death) from God for the wicked, we are condemning others. When it is the exact opposite we actually condemn our ownselves and realized that God's plan is for a perfect saint in all of us!! We do not focus on the negative, but the positive. And it is the positives of all that can be positive!! That WE CAN turn from sin, and face God as a born again perfect creation!! Now that is Good news!! How could it get any better than that!!! Could you imagine if everyone were to accomplish this?? It would truly be exactly what you believe Universal Reconciliation, only we wouldn't have to wait until the next life to get it!!!
GOD BLESS!!!
DALE
So you believe eternal separation from God will not be torment at all, you will just not exist, you will not suffer or experience pain, regret or sorrow of any kind and you will not be tormented before you cease to exist?
So you believe eternal separation from God will not be torment at all, you will just not exist, you will not suffer or experience pain, regret or sorrow of any kind and you will not be tormented before you cease to exist?
Well, I cannot speak for Verna on this subject fully, but our beliefs are similar.
I believe that the wicked are punished eternally, but not that the wicked endure eternal punishment. The wicked suffer eternal punishment, eternal judgement, and eternal destruction, the same way the elect experience eternal redamption. The elect do not undergo an eternal process of redemption. Their redemption is eternal in the sense that, once the elect are redeemed, it is forever!! So too, the wicked do not undergo a process of eternal punishment or destruction. But once they are punished and destroyed, it is forever. Hell is eternal in consequence, not duration. The wicked are destroyed forever, but they are not forever being destroyed!!
GOD BLESS!!!
DALE
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Page 3...Romans continued...
