Cincinnati in 20 years? What areas improve or decline? (Dayton, Springfield: condo, homes)

[restorationconsultant]

One of the more interesting demographics of the recent census was that the suburbs are growing older and that seniors are no longer moving to areas like Florida but instead "aging in place" you are seeing alot of that in Indy and Chicago already. As these people age they are becoming more frugal and very anti tax. One fairly afflent township near Indianapolis now has to pay for bus transportation (495.00 per student)for school because a referndum to increase the achool tax rate was voted down and the township had to go to private bus service. Not the first place that has happened.

The Old high school on White street in Fairmount is reopening as a pre-k-6 "academy" and there is a new private school over on Waverly, not to mention Orion Academy on Queen City. Clearly expectations and school choices are being driven by a new dynamic of urban profesionals moving to the city to get away from the suburbia they grew up in. Increasingly in my neighborhood many of our new Urban pioneers are in their 20's or 30's with kids who have 'outgrown their OTR condos and certainly are not poor and want to live ina diverse neighborhood.

Although its hard for many 'native' Cincinnatians to accept change, change is coming and many of our current ideas of what are 'good or bad' areas is changing mostly driven by younger profesionals accepting jobs in Cincinnati.

While many of the young who grew up here want to leave, To non locals, Cincinnati is a place with a lot of promise and dirt cheap housing.

[kjbrill]

I just love that statement dirt cheap housing. There is no such thing. Unless you are desiring to live in a neanderthal environment, the cost of upgrading kitchen, bathroom, and heating cooling systems will more than eat up any so-called savings on the purchase of the original property.

Just yesterday, I was helping a friend replace the pressed fiberboard or paper mush siding on his detached 3-car garage. We probably should have removed the Celotex siding also, as it was pretty much in sad shape. Zeke was concerned our new vinyl siding project was not the best in terms of quality. I said Zeke you are 75 and I am 72, who gives a sh*t whether it lasts over 15 years.

[restorationconsultant]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

I just love that statement dirt cheap housing. There is no such thing. Unless you are desiring to live in a neanderthal environment, the cost of upgrading kitchen, bathroom, and heating cooling systems will more than eat up any so-called savings on the purchase of the original property.

Just yesterday, I was helping a friend replace the pressed fiberboard or paper mush siding on his detached 3-car garage. We probably should have removed the Celotex siding also, as it was pretty much in sad shape. Zeke was concerned our new vinyl siding project was not the best in terms of quality. I said Zeke you are 75 and I am 72, who gives a sh*t whether it lasts over 15 years.

Gee I dont know we paid 4000.00 for house that needed everything but would have cost us 100-150K in most cities. By the way... Vinyl siding should be outlawed...except in trailer parks which is where it belongs. Actually more and more cioties ARE outlawing Vinyl siding.

Seriously I work for people all over the country and and BY FAR Cincinnati has the least expensive housing. I am working with client right now in San Francisco who paid 1.2 mil for a house that needs everything
that would sell for "maybe 30-40K in Cincy. The lowest bid on painting it in a six color preservation paint job came in at 80K! I am just amazed that locals have no clue how cheap housing is in Cincinnati.

We have an abundance of great architecture but so few appreciate it.

[kjbrill]

I agree cheap vinyl siding looks cheap. But after 10 years, the siding on the second floor of my brother's $400K house was just disintegrating. He had it repainted twice in 10 years, but nothing did any good. I did some research and located Royal Products in Canada. They make first class vinyl siding. In addition to being much thicker than the standard home warehouse crap, it comes with a prebonded high density foam molded backing. It is rigid, does not flap in the wind, and has a true woodgrain appearance. He looked around until he found an independent contractor who was willing to tear off all of the old stuff, purchase and apply this product. All trim, etc. was covered using a color coordinated aluminum formed on site with a press brake.

The resulting job is striking. You have to be right on top of it to distinguish it is not wood. He was concerned about the appearance of the house. It looks much better than when brand new. By far the best looking house on the street. If you buy quality product and have talented people install it vinyl siding can be very good. By the way, this material was available in lengths so there are no seams.

[progmac]

the hardiplank stuff doesn't look too bad, either. my 100 year old wood siding still looks good.

[restorationconsultant]

What 'preserved' so many homes in our neighborhood was that 'asbestos' siding placed over old clapboard in the 1920's and 30's. Interestingly most of it is mineral wool based and the 140 year old clabboards a were in good shape. Of course they always cut the 5/4 corner boards off but Hardi makes an acceptable replacement.

The problem with vinyl siding is it traps moisture and cause internal mold and rot. Many of the houses built in the 1980-90's are literally rotting from the inside out. Vinyl is not a good material on a house for that reason, and you NEVER want to put it on a really old house. I predict in a few more years we will see some major deterioration of 80's burbs simply because the houses will rot apart. Probably where the poor, and section 8, will wind up as people 'flee' their mold infested, rotting 1980's tract homes.

[Wilson513]

Actually, really old houses will fare better with vinyl siding when compared to thie 80's and 90's counterparts. Older homes have walls that consist of siding, tar paper, stud space, lath, and plaster. Moisture in the stud wall is easily absorbed through the lath and plaster and into the home.

Newer houses have a wall that is siding, tyvek, stud space, plastic sheeting, and drywall. The moisture migrates through the tyvek and condenses on the cold plastic sheeting. The plastic sheeting prevents the moisture from being absorbed into the interior drywall and molds in the stud wall cavity.

Several adaptations to correct this problem have been implemented but for my money, eliminating the plastic sheeting is the only really effective solution. The drywall can absorb enormous amounts of moisture from the stud wall cavity and evaporate it into the interior of the house. Also, I would avoid the Tyvek and use the tar paper instead. The Tyvek encourages teh transmittal of moisture into the stud wall.

[kjbrill]

In our climate, I disagree that moisture moves from outside to inside. Our very dry and low pressure winters cause moisture to move from indoors to outside. This is the reason paint on many older frame houses peals, the moisture moving through the wall from the inside is trapped behind and lifts the paint film. Modern latex based paints are less prone to peeling because they are porous and breathe, permitting moisture to pass through.

Although rarely seen, a properly constructed exterior wall will have an air passage from the basement to the attic to circulate air and reduce trapped moisture. Older homes had such a construction before it was popular to completely finish basements. If done properly the finished basement ceiling would have a vent strip along the exterior foundation wall to provide air flow up inside the exterior walls and out the attic. The obsession with air tight homes perceived with energy efficiency actually aggravates the situation.

[Wilson513]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

In our climate, I disagree that moisture moves from outside to inside.

The specific mechanism is that the rain (usually on the west side of the house) saturates the bricks and mortar, the sun comes out and the water vapor migrates through the Tyvek.

Its not a theory on my part. Its how it happens. You should know by now that I wouldn't postulate it if I didn't know how it works. I could send you a couple of thousand pages of expert witness reports, but then you might open up your wall cavities on the west side of the house and we'd have another lawsuit.

As for your statement that moisture exits the house through the walls, think that through a little. In the winter, the furnace which is never adequately fresh air vented creates a slight vacuum inside the house and air migrates in through every nook and cranny. In the summer, the relative humidity inside the house averages 30% points below outside. The inside out theory just doesn't happen. And, what would be the source of the moisture? The paint peels for other reasons.

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

The specific mechanism is that the rain (usually on the west side of the house) saturates the bricks and mortar, the sun comes out and the water vapor migrates through the Tyvek.

Its not a theory on my part. Its how it happens. You should know by now that I wouldn't postulate it if I didn't know how it works. I could send you a couple of thousand pages of expert witness reports, but then you might open up your wall cavities on the west side of the house and we'd have another lawsuit.

I can agree moisture from pounding rain can migrate through porous brick and mortar. This is why I seal my bricks periodically to prevent this occurrence. Nothing fancy, just good old concrete sealer applied with a garden sprayer. When after a rain you notice your walls are quickly dry you know it is effective.

But there is a reason why many of us operate humidifiers in the winter season to replenish the moisture escaping from our homes. It not only helps to make the heated air feel warmer, reduce dry skin, and also reduce the shrinkage of the structure producing cracks at various points in the interior.

Obviously our Cincy summers are very humid. My central air conditioner removes a ton of water from the interior air, acting as a dehumidifier. A good friend of mine who runs an HVAC company advised me the air conditioner should be sized to virtually run all the time. If it is overcapacity the air will cool too fast, not permitting enough air flow across the coils to produce the dehunidification effect. You just have cold wet air, quite uncomfortable.