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Maggie Walker is a magnet school as well, although it's actually part of the statewide governor's school program and is not actually part of Richmond Public Schools, I believe.
I don't see how anyone could argue that Buffalo has a better climate than Richmond. Richmond isn't that bad in the summer and still has 4 seasons, it can get snow in the winter and has nice springs and falls. Buffalo is bitterly cold and nasty for at least 5 months out of the year and frequently cloudy and/or rainy the rest. I know preferences exist but c'mon.
I'm familiar with the Buffalo Billion. There's shrines and signs to it in the First Ward and Outer Harbor areas, amongst other places...
Richmond being 22 miles larger in land area doesn't get overlooked--it isn't really important. That differential doesn't change the fact that Richmond has the denser core, the busier core, the larger downtown. If Richmond was in New York it wouldn't be 60 square miles, but then, even that wouldn't change the fact that Richmond is more urban within the core. If anything, it would heighten the realization...
Richmond has the larger metropolitan area. Richmond has the larger downtown. Richmond had the larger urban area by about 18,000 in 2010, and because both Richmond City and metro have gained population this decade while Buffalo City and metro have lost population, the 2020 Census will reveal an even larger gulf between the two UA's...
Again, not that Richmond feels dramatically larger than Buffalo, but nobody is going to Richmond FROM Buffalo and have the impression they are in a smaller city. Literally the only metric by which Buffalo is larger is the least important one--by city...
The ~20 square miles more of land that Richmond have is essentially the difference explained in Buffalo being ~6300ppsm to Richmond ~3700ppsm. Buffalo has a more widespread urban form. Richmond is more built up within the core ~9-10 square miles of the city...
I think the point of importance I was trying to illustrate is that Buffalo's ranking within NY is generally fluid and debatable, not that it is unimportant....
Just wondering do you have any proof that the inner core of Richmond is denser than the inner core of Buffalo?
edit: according to the NYTs map, Richmond has a peak of 20,000 ppsm in its densest census tract, while Buffalo is around 18K. However, census tracks are tiny so looking at 1 is pretty useless (unless you really think Lawrence MA as a more cohesive urban core than the both of them), like blocks, the inner few square miles Buffalo has a more 10,000+ census blocks
Last edited by btownboss4; 07-16-2017 at 12:29 PM..
Just wondering do you have any proof that the inner core of Richmond is denser than the inner core of Buffalo?
edit: according to the NYTs map, Richmond has a peak of 20,000 ppsm in its densest census tract, while Buffalo is around 18K. However, census tracks are tiny so looking at 1 is pretty useless (unless you really think Lawrence MA as a more cohesive urban core than the both of them), like blocks, the inner few square miles Buffalo has a more 10,000+ census blocks
No other proof than according to USA census tract as of 2014, Richmond's peak density is 22,175, while Buffalo's is 16,675. According to the same source, Richmond also has a tract at 20,499. Buffalo has no tract above 20,000 so this is a substantial difference in peak densities...
However, yes, as I already stated (which means I agree with you), Buffalo clearly has the wider range of widespread urbanity and urban neighborhoods--which affirms that it has many more census tracts at 10,000+ than does Richmond....
So, most of my analysis is anecdotal, but since you keep ducking a response to my question of when you've been to Richmond, it seems safe to assume you've either never been or certainly haven't been recently enough; so my anecdotal views have to account for something. Not only do I have a passing familiarity with Buffalo--as in I've been there multiple times--, I've been within the last two months and am obviously intimately familiar with Richmond...
I find it very hard to believe that anybody with multiple experience in both Richmond and Buffalo would believe that Buffalo feels denser within the core, feels more urban, or is more built out. Literally the only people who feel this way havent been to Richmond. We can introduce a litany of criteria but specifically I am referencing ground level feel and street appeal within the core regions of both inner cities. While this relies on a lot of anecdotal evidence, it includes the sane parameters of which we consider any city's urbanity with...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakeesha
Buffalo definitely feels like the larger city. I also like the proximity to Canada.
Just asking: when is the last time you've been to Buffalo and Richmond? What did you do in both? And why would you say Buffalo feels larger? Interested in hearing your perspective from a tangible experience!
No other proof than according to USA census tract as of 2014, Richmond's peak density is 22,175, while Buffalo's is 16,675. According to the same source, Richmond also has a tract at 20,499. Buffalo has no tract above 20,000 so this is a substantial difference in peak densities...
However, yes, as I already stated (which means I agree with you), Buffalo clearly has the wider range of widespread urbanity and urban neighborhoods--which affirms that it has many more census tracts at 10,000+ than does Richmond....
So, most of my analysis is anecdotal, but since you keep ducking a response to my question of when you've been to Richmond, it seems safe to assume you've either never been or certainly haven't been recently enough; so my anecdotal views have to account for something. Not only do I have a passing familiarity with Buffalo--as in I've been there multiple times--, I've been within the last two months and am obviously intimately familiar with Richmond...
I find it very hard to believe that anybody with multiple experience in both Richmond and Buffalo would believe that Buffalo feels denser within the core, feels more urban, or is more built out. Literally the only people who feel this way havent been to Richmond. We can introduce a litany of criteria but specifically I am referencing ground level feel and street appeal within the core regions of both inner cities. While this relies on a lot of anecdotal evidence, it includes the sane parameters of which we consider any city's urbanity with...
Just asking: when is the last time you've been to Buffalo and Richmond? What did you do in both? And why would you say Buffalo feels larger? Interested in hearing your perspective from a tangible experience!
I have been to Richmond. I was on my way to Myrtle Beach and we stopped there to check out some history and stuff. Now the only times I have been to Buffalo its been for Sabres games, which obviously lower Downtown would be busier than usual, and with the grand 1900-1930s architecture it kind of seemed like a major city. Richmond has the old colonial architecture and modern skyscrapers but less art-deco monuments like Buffalo has. The Downtowns otherwise seemed similar so it seemed to give Buffalo a sense of grandeur than Richmond lacked. 2 census blocks have a combined population of under 10,000.
By Zip Code the inner 5 sq miles (Densest ZIP code in Richmond) is 6,089 ppsm.
The Densest 5 square miles of Buffalo is about 11,750 ppsm (its 4 zip codes to reach 5 sq miles).
I think our definitions of core is different. you see a few block radius from the center of town as the core, while I see the broader center like 4-6ish square miles Outside of those 4-6 square miles you really start getting towards true neighborhoods.
I have been to Richmond. I was on my way to Myrtle Beach and we stopped there to check out some history and stuff. Now the only times I have been to Buffalo its been for Sabres games, which obviously lower Downtown would be busier than usual, and with the grand 1900-1930s architecture it kind of seemed like a major city. Richmond has the old colonial architecture and modern skyscrapers but less art-deco monuments like Buffalo has. The Downtowns otherwise seemed similar so it seemed to give Buffalo a sense of grandeur than Richmond lacked. 2 census blocks have a combined population of under 10,000.
By Zip Code the inner 5 sq miles (Densest ZIP code in Richmond) is 6,089 ppsm.
The Densest 5 square miles of Buffalo is about 11,750 ppsm (its 4 zip codes to reach 5 sq miles).
I think our definitions of core is different. you see a few block radius from the center of town as the core, while I see the broader center like 4-6ish square miles Outside of those 4-6 square miles you really start getting towards true neighborhoods.
I do believe our definition of core is different. For you and specifically @ckthankgod, who is more intimately familiar with Buffalo than I, what would you say are Buffalo's core neighborhoods? I have a general idea I would classify as north/south Kenmore Avenue to the Buffalo River south of the casino (roughly 6 miles) and east/west the Kensington Expressway to 190 (roughly 3 miles), so an 18-square mile core...
I'd consider Richmond's core to east/west roughly be Libby Hill Park to 195 in Carytown's western border (roughly 5.5 miles), and north/south The Diamond/Scott's Addition to Hull St Road&Jeff Davis in Manchester (roughly 4.5 miles), for a core of roughly 24.75-square miles...
Obviously these are all opinionated but I'm guessing "core" based on the connectivity of premier urban neighborhoods within each city. I think both cities have good neighborhoods outside this defined core. I haven't yet figure out how to compute density in such compact areas accurately, so if you can figure that out I'd like to know. The assumption is that Buffalo will still be denser, but I doubt as starkly as 11750 to 6100. Just a hunch, though!
And just in case you're wondering, the way I defined Buffalo's core is about 44% of Buffalo's land area, and the way I defined Richmond's would be about 41% of Richmond's land area, so comparatively, they are comparable slices of each city's area. I do realize most people would define "core" as something much smaller, but then we really would just be talking about downtowns and immediate surroundings, and personally, because of the connectivity of Richmond's urban nodes, I think it's sizable...
One thing that is easily noticeable to the eye is that Richmond's downtown is much larger than Downtown Buffalo. This is clearly noticeable and not even debatable and I'm working on pulling different figures for support. From a street level, Downtown Buffalo, which I don't actually view as a ghost town, can be described as that compared to Downtown Richmond. Downtown Rich is much more vibrant with a much better street scene (vendors, walk-ups, mixed uses, retail, entertainment, daylife, nightlife, dining, pedestrian activity, etc), and outside of Downtown, as ck and I spoke before, they have very comparable neighborhoods....
I don't know what lack of grandeur you think Downtown Richmond lacks, and you're one of a small number of people who would say Richmond has modern skyscrapers--it doesn't. I don't have the same fanaticism for Art Deco as many people here seem to have; not that I don't appreciate it, but I don't see how it gives Buffalo an advantage. Richmond is much more architecturally stimulating to me, is more architecturally diverse (there is much more than colonial architecture in Downtown and surroundings), is more architecturally colorful, and has a major advantage in terms of street art and murals. The downtowns are definitely not similar in any scale...
I do believe our definition of core is different. For you and specifically @ckthankgod, who is more intimately familiar with Buffalo than I, what would you say are Buffalo's core neighborhoods? I have a general idea I would classify as north/south Kenmore Avenue to the Buffalo River south of the casino (roughly 6 miles) and east/west the Kensington Expressway to 190 (roughly 3 miles), so an 18-square mile core...
I'd consider Richmond's core to east/west roughly be Libby Hill Park to 195 in Carytown's western border (roughly 5.5 miles), and north/south The Diamond/Scott's Addition to Hull St Road&Jeff Davis in Manchester (roughly 4.5 miles), for a core of roughly 24.75-square miles...
Obviously these are all opinionated but I'm guessing "core" based on the connectivity of premier urban neighborhoods within each city. I think both cities have good neighborhoods outside this defined core. I haven't yet figure out how to compute density in such compact areas accurately, so if you can figure that out I'd like to know. The assumption is that Buffalo will still be denser, but I doubt as starkly as 11750 to 6100. Just a hunch, though!
And just in case you're wondering, the way I defined Buffalo's core is about 44% of Buffalo's land area, and the way I defined Richmond's would be about 41% of Richmond's land area, so comparatively, they are comparable slices of each city's area. I do realize most people would define "core" as something much smaller, but then we really would just be talking about downtowns and immediate surroundings, and personally, because of the connectivity of Richmond's urban nodes, I think it's sizable...
One thing that is easily noticeable to the eye is that Richmond's downtown is much larger than Downtown Buffalo. This is clearly noticeable and not even debatable and I'm working on pulling different figures for support. From a street level, Downtown Buffalo, which I don't actually view as a ghost town, can be described as that compared to Downtown Richmond. Downtown Rich is much more vibrant with a much better street scene (vendors, walk-ups, mixed uses, retail, entertainment, daylife, nightlife, dining, pedestrian activity, etc), and outside of Downtown, as ck and I spoke before, they have very comparable neighborhoods....
I don't know what lack of grandeur you think Downtown Richmond lacks, and you're one of a small number of people who would say Richmond has modern skyscrapers--it doesn't. I don't have the same fanaticism for Art Deco as many people here seem to have; not that I don't appreciate it, but I don't see how it gives Buffalo an advantage. Richmond is much more architecturally stimulating to me, is more architecturally diverse (there is much more than colonial architecture in Downtown and surroundings), is more architecturally colorful, and has a major advantage in terms of street art and murals. The downtowns are definitely not similar in any scale...
I pulled the density #s from zipatlas.com. When I say modern I mean 60s-80s boxes a opposed to Buffalo's 1910-30s era skyscrapers, which tend to be more ornate.
I think if you're talking downtowns (1 sq mile) then yes, Richmond is denser and more vibrant, but in a broader core 5-6 sq miles Buffalo is denser and it really isn't even close.
I pulled the density #s from zipatlas.com. When I say modern I mean 60s-80s boxes a opposed to Buffalo's 1910-30s era skyscrapers, which tend to be more ornate.
I think if you're talking downtowns (1 sq mile) then yes, Richmond is denser and more vibrant, but in a broader core 5-6 sq miles Buffalo is denser and it really isn't even close.
The problem with using zip codes is that zip codes can cover such wide ranges of areas that aren't really connected to each other. For instance, Church Hill is located in 23223 but is one of maybe 2-3 neighborhoods in that zip code that are high level urban, so the rest of the zip code over weighs Church Hill's fabric...
City Data desperately needs to update it's neighborhood stats and boundaries (it says that Manchester has a neighborhood density of only 254 people), but even using info provided by City Data, Church Hill has a neighborhood density of 7709 and the surrounding East End neighborhoods that would qualify as core Richmond have a composite density of ~6027---and this is not even the densest area of Richmond. So I have to figure out a way to find the densities for the entire core region...
I seriously doubt the gap between core Buffalo and core Richmond is over 5000 ppsm...
The thing about architecture is it's entirely subject to preference, and the thing about urbanity is it covers more than just population density. So by that account, Richmond is going to best Buffalo in most measures of urbanity than not. Again, I'm not sure how one can be in both cities and objectively state otherwise. Preference, yes....but Richmond has some very clear advantages that are so easily noticed; Richmond's downtown is MUCH larger; Richmond's downtown peripheral neighborhoods that fill out the core are probably pound for pound better than Buffalo's peripheral downtown neighborhoods. There is very little that Buffalo can claim to do better than Richmond, and it certainly has nothing to do with size--as Buffalo clearly is smaller--and very little to do with urbanity--Buffalo has much higher density throughout the city but has far less vibrancy, has far less peak densities, and comes short of Richmond in nearly every other measure of urbanity...
Anybody standing in the two cities can see this. And architecture is not something anybody can objectively say Buffalo does better, at all. I love Buffalo, but it is one of many cities that get more credit than it deserves; it is a fine city and hopefully I'll own a summer home there or somewhere else Upstate at some point, but a comparison to Richmond is not a comparison to Rochester--this is not a comparison that favors Buffalo...
The problem with using zip codes is that zip codes can cover such wide ranges of areas that aren't really connected to each other. For instance, Church Hill is located in 23223 but is one of maybe 2-3 neighborhoods in that zip code that are high level urban, so the rest of the zip code over weighs Church Hill's fabric...
City Data desperately needs to update it's neighborhood stats and boundaries (it says that Manchester has a neighborhood density of only 254 people), but even using info provided by City Data, Church Hill has a neighborhood density of 7709 and the surrounding East End neighborhoods that would qualify as core Richmond have a composite density of ~6027---and this is not even the densest area of Richmond. So I have to figure out a way to find the densities for the entire core region...
I seriously doubt the gap between core Buffalo and core Richmond is over 5000 ppsm...
The thing about architecture is it's entirely subject to preference, and the thing about urbanity is it covers more than just population density. So by that account, Richmond is going to best Buffalo in most measures of urbanity than not. Again, I'm not sure how one can be in both cities and objectively state otherwise. Preference, yes....but Richmond has some very clear advantages that are so easily noticed; Richmond's downtown is MUCH larger; Richmond's downtown peripheral neighborhoods that fill out the core are probably pound for pound better than Buffalo's peripheral downtown neighborhoods. There is very little that Buffalo can claim to do better than Richmond, and it certainly has nothing to do with size--as Buffalo clearly is smaller--and very little to do with urbanity--Buffalo has much higher density throughout the city but has far less vibrancy, has far less peak densities, and comes short of Richmond in nearly every other measure of urbanity...
Anybody standing in the two cities can see this. And architecture is not something anybody can objectively say Buffalo does better, at all. I love Buffalo, but it is one of many cities that get more credit than it deserves; it is a fine city and hopefully I'll own a summer home there or somewhere else Upstate at some point, but a comparison to Richmond is not a comparison to Rochester--this is not a comparison that favors Buffalo...
Okay, So Richmond's densest ZIP code is that for the Fan District, which makes sense, Downtown proper (23219) has a density is 1,666ppsm. Of course that's due to offices and stuff. Census Blocks are pretty useless, they are way too small. Want a list of cities with higher peak densities than Richmond? Lowell, MA, Portland, ME, Lawrence, MA, New Bedford, MA, Trenton, NJ. Census tracks are too small to derive reasonable conclusions.
if you want another objective measure, Buffalo has 28.3 million transit trips/year, while Richmond has 10.1. You may feel Richmond is denser and more urban, but it factually isn't true.
According to City-data.com, Richmond has a daytime population jump of 68,000, while Buffalo is +44,000.
This means during the day there are only about 10k more people in Buffalo than Richmond, and likely more people in Downtown Richmond than Downtown Buffalo, unless there is significant amounts of jobs elsewhere in the city.
Last edited by btownboss4; 07-17-2017 at 09:23 AM..
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