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I don't know why when people mention Philadelphia subways they always think that there are either one or two lines. In every other city in the US whenever a train runs underground or has a particular route they consider it to be a distinctly seperate line and they consider a train a subway even if it has only one station underground.....well If that definition of a subway works in other cities, why doesn't that work for Philadelphia. So as someone who has ridden Philly subways for years, let me count the lines: 1-Broad street Line (subway has local trains making all stops and express trains making only certain stops- if this condition existed in Washington they would each be considerred seperate lines, 2- Ridge Ave spur,
3-Market-Frankfurt line - this has an 'A' and 'B'. Train which each skip stations stoping at diffent stations - if this condition. Existed in Washington DC each train would be considerred a seperate line, 4- subway surface lines- there are actually 5 different routes that split into 2 different tunnels in West Philly, 5-the walnut street /Patco Speed line, 6-The commute trains - with roughly 10 or more different routes that travel downtown servicing 3 stations downtown-if this condition existed in Washington DC each of the 10 or more routes would be considerred seperate lines.
So one can argue that Philly has 6 or more lines not one. Additionally, there are stations where three lines converge at 3 different levels underground. There are also conditions where tunnels are anywhere from 2 to 10 tracks wide. unfortunately there are also abandoned stations and unbuilt lines where stations were built to accommodate the junction of multiple new routes. Philly may not be the newest, most glamorous and clean system but if anyone outside of New York were to experience it they would realize right away that they were in a really urban city. The system may not be the best or considerred the sexiest, but i challenge other cities to build systems to the scale, magnitude and complexity of Philly's. washington DC's system was built they way that it was purely because it is in the Nation's capitol---they spared no expence.......no other city would get the blank open checkbook with limitless funds to build as was the case with the DC metro.
All this talk of light rail vs heavy rail when it comes to subways is ridiculous....if it's a vehicle that carries dozens to hundreds of people underground then it's a subway..the subway surface lines in Center city and West Philly are light rail trolleys that move a significant amount of people...(albeit less than the heavier rail lines) ..at rush hour in Center City watching those trains pull into and out of the stations is like watching a pit stop at the Indy 500.....a train pulls into the station one after another every 3 minutes sometimes....afterall there are 5 seperate routes serving 2 tunnels........also if you are as familiar with many of the nations systems and rolling stock (train cars) as I am you would know that the train cars in Chicago are relatively small as compared to the other majors heavy rail stock in NYC, Philly, Boston and DC.....I guess that .since a significant portion of Chicago's system is elevated the planners wanted to make the cars smaller to reduce weight on the elevated bridges and to allow the trains to make the tight turns downtown in the loop..so a smaller lighter rail car makes sense....in fact I would wager that many light rail cars are in fact heavier than Chicago's (heavy rail) trains. On the EL
Historically, the first subway in America was probably a light rail trolley car on Boston's Green line and the first subway in Philly was probably a trolley car running below market street in 1907 so if the first subways in America were light rail and considerred subways why wouldn't light rail systems be considered subways today?????
Light rail subway lines are also prevalent globally..
Now DC, I was just there and coming from the squeeky el and subway of Chicago, the DC service is absolutely amazing, the timing and arrival is better than any city in American(including NYC). Only negative, some of the best neighborhoods(we had to go to Georgetown for the cupcake place in Georgetown). Foggy bottom was quite a hike, Was kind of surprised there is no Georgetown exit.
I hope you got a chance to ride on the newer trains. A lot of upgrades inside those cars.
I don't know why when people mention Philadelphia subways they always think that there are either one or two lines. In every other city in the US whenever a train runs underground or has a particular route they consider it to be a distinctly seperate line and they consider a train a subway even if it has only one station underground.....well If that definition of a subway works in other cities, why doesn't that work for Philadelphia. So as someone who has ridden Philly subways for years, let me count the lines: 1-Broad street Line (subway has local trains making all stops and express trains making only certain stops- if this condition existed in Washington they would each be considerred seperate lines, 2- Ridge Ave spur,
3-Market-Frankfurt line - this has an 'A' and 'B'. Train which each skip stations stoping at diffent stations - if this condition. Existed in Washington DC each train would be considerred a seperate line, 4- subway surface lines- there are actually 5 different routes that split into 2 different tunnels in West Philly, 5-the walnut street /Patco Speed line, 6-The commute trains - with roughly 10 or more different routes that travel downtown servicing 3 stations downtown-if this condition existed in Washington DC each of the 10 or more routes would be considerred seperate lines.
So one can argue that Philly has 6 or more lines not one. Additionally, there are stations where three lines converge at 3 different levels underground. There are also conditions where tunnels are anywhere from 2 to 10 tracks wide. unfortunately there are also abandoned stations and unbuilt lines where stations were built to accommodate the junction of multiple new routes. Philly may not be the newest, most glamorous and clean system but if anyone outside of New York were to experience it they would realize right away that they were in a really urban city. The system may not be the best or considerred the sexiest, but i challenge other cities to build systems to the scale, magnitude and complexity of Philly's. washington DC's system was built they way that it was purely because it is in the Nation's capitol---they spared no expence.......no other city would get the blank open checkbook with limitless funds to build as was the case with the DC metro.
All this talk of light rail vs heavy rail when it comes to subways is ridiculous....if it's a vehicle that carries dozens to hundreds of people underground then it's a subway..the subway surface lines in Center city and West Philly are light rail trolleys that move a significant amount of people...(albeit less than the heavier rail lines) ..at rush hour in Center City watching those trains pull into and out of the stations is like watching a pit stop at the Indy 500.....a train pulls into the station one after another every 3 minutes sometimes....afterall there are 5 seperate routes serving 2 tunnels........also if you are as familiar with many of the nations systems and rolling stock (train cars) as I am you would know that the train cars in Chicago are relatively small as compared to the other majors heavy rail stock in NYC, Philly, Boston and DC.....I guess that .since a significant portion of Chicago's system is elevated the planners wanted to make the cars smaller to reduce weight on the elevated bridges and to allow the trains to make the tight turns downtown in the loop..so a smaller lighter rail car makes sense....in fact I would wager that many light rail cars are in fact heavier than Chicago's (heavy rail) trains. On the EL
Historically, the first subway in America was probably a light rail trolley car on Boston's Green line and the first subway in Philly was probably a trolley car running below market street in 1907 so if the first subways in America were light rail and considerred subways why wouldn't light rail systems be considered subways today?????
Light rail subway lines are also prevalent globally..
I live in Philly now and rely on transit completely. The BSL, MFL, and Patco are three major, complete heavy-rail transit lines that should count. The Ridge Ave spur is a TINY branch that connects the BSL and MFL with worse headways and two stations. Not exactly a separate subway line.
The trolley subway/surface lines are very helpful, but they move slower, have worse frequency (most of the time), and they all run through the same tunnel in CC/UC before they dump onto the street in West Philly. And they are much slower moving, lower capacity. Very different IMO.
That leaves three major lines in Philly, which is quite small for such a large city. Again, I haven't owned a car here in three years, and I love Philly. We will never see the full subway coverage the city was supposed to have, an absence that definitely has an impact for many city-wide.
I live in Philly now and rely on transit completely. The BSL, MFL, and Patco are three major, complete heavy-rail transit lines that should count. The Ridge Ave spur is a TINY branch that connects the BSL and MFL with worse headways and two stations. Not exactly a separate subway line.
The trolley subway/surface lines are very helpful, but they move slower, have worse frequency (most of the time), and they all run through the same tunnel in CC/UC before they dump onto the street in West Philly. And they are much slower moving, lower capacity. Very different IMO.
That leaves three major lines in Philly, which is quite small for such a large city. Again, I haven't owned a car here in three years, and I love Philly. We will never see the full subway coverage the city was supposed to have, an absence that definitely has an impact for many city-wide.
Again, you shouldn't leave out Regional Rail which covers much of the city the subways and el misses, regardless of how infrequent daytime service is on most (but not all) lines are.
Again, you shouldn't leave out Regional Rail which covers much of the city the subways and el misses, regardless of how infrequent daytime service is on most (but not all) lines are.
Again, the OP stated Subway system. Not regional rail. I love Philly's RR system, but that is not the topic.
Again, the OP stated Subway system. Not regional rail. I love Philly's RR system, but that is not the topic.
Despite the OP, it makes no sense just act like it's a small subway system in isolation. Clearly if Philly had no electrified Regional Rail system the subway system would be much, much bigger.
Despite the OP, it makes no sense just act like it's a small subway system in isolation. Clearly if Philly had no electrified Regional Rail system the subway system would be much, much bigger.
I'm with you, but you're replying in a thread where the OP only wants to discuss subways/elevated heavy rapid transit. I stated the same thing you're saying earlier in this thread...
Despite the OP, it makes no sense just act like it's a small subway system in isolation. Clearly if Philly had no electrified Regional Rail system the subway system would be much, much bigger.
I agree that it's silly to exclude Boston's Green Line trains because they're part of the T system...you can transfer from green line to other trains within the system at no charge. I don't know much about Philadelphia transit, but if I have to pay a second fare to transfer to the regional rail, I understand why one would exclude it.
I'm with you, but you're replying in a thread where the OP only wants to discuss subways/elevated heavy rapid transit. I stated the same thing you're saying earlier in this thread...
You're absolutely correct in your interpretation of subways as urban rapid transit, and that this is what the OP was focusing on... I just object to your characterization of the Philly system as small when, really, it's the subset of a huge rail network ... including subway-surface LRT, PATCO (the New Jersey HRT), suburban trolleys (Media and Sharon Hill) and the suburban high-platform, 3rd rail LRT (Route 100, Norristown Line) <--- these latter 3 operating from the 69th Street terminal of the Market-Frankford elevated HRT... and, as mentioned, the 200+ mile electrified regional rail lines...
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