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Ay, I'm just cementing my reasoning for why Boston should be behind DC and Chicago.
It is unsatisfactory and people don't like it. and it's dangerous.
"Transit Police report that Jaquan Rowell, 29, who was stabbed on an Orange Line platform at Downtown Crossing around 10 p.m. on Feb. 7, succumbed to his injuries on Tuesday.
Anthony Nguyen, 47, who was initially charged with assault with intent to murder, could now face murder charges."
I'll list mine in order of places I've been to. So I can't speak on Boston because I've never been. And even though I have been to Chicago in the past, when we went we didn't go to Downtown nor use public transportation to get around. Only to visit Family.
1. D.C. (found D.C. to be very clean and convenient. Very easy to navigate to and from place to place. )
2. PATH (Ok I know this is in the NYC metro area but I'm talking about the portion in New Jersey. I really liked the PATH system in Jersey City)
3. BART (Had no complaints really. Anytime I can go from SFO to Palo Alto without driving than I'm good!)
4. SEPTA (Thought the subway system in Philly was solid. Got us from the airport to our hotel in City Centre so couldn't complain there. It did feel more seedy than NYC subway system in certain stations in City Centre. Mostly because it didn't seem like a lot of ppl took the subway in the City Centre unlike Manhattan. But than again I was in NYC pre-covid, I went to Philly last year so covid probably influenced that. Was a huge let down that the train didn't go to the Philadelphia Museum of Art. I also found it a little more difficult to figure out exactly where I was going with SEPTA.
5. MARTA (Really only used it when I was going to the airport or coming from the airport, either way still beats sitting in traffic.)
1. DC
(small gap)
2. Chicago
(large gap)
3. Philly
4. Boston
(small gap)
5. San Francisco
(large gap)
6. Los Angeles
(small gap)
7. Atlanta
(large gap)
8. Cleveland
9. Baltimore
Man smashed in the face on the Red Line at JFK/UMass; suspect arrested
Police say David Washington-Halfkenny, 40, had been "aggressively pacing" up and down a car around 8:50 p.m. when, without provocation, "struck the victim in his face/head numerous times with a blunt object" as the train sat at JFK/UMass.
Police say when officers arrived, Washington-Halfkenny was "standing over the victim and shouting," with blood streaming "profusely from [the victim's] face and head."
The MBTA has a problem with unruly passengers right now. This was a comment on the article:
Reason 1,000,789,999
By robo on Mon, 03/07/2022 - 9:32am.
Why I’ll never ride the T again. Can’t even mind your own business without getting your face smashed open. 10 likes.
Another man was stabbed about 20 feet from the Nubian Station yesterday also. Albeit that's not a subway sop.
11. Cleveland
Not sure why the OP is willing to count this one, since it has only one underground station (Tower City). It provides access to downtown and the airport, but that's about it.
This is a ridiculous premise followed by a false statement.
The term "subway" is applied generally to grade-separated heavy rail systems, of which Cleveland's Red Line clearly is. Even you yourself noted Miami should be considered because even though Miami's Metrorail is entirely above-ground, and almost exclusively elevated (poor, unsolid sandy soil conditions negate subway tunneling due to engineering and expense), it still is loosely considered a "subway". We know New York's massive city rail system is called a subway, although many miles of it are either elevated or in open-cut trenches (either by itself or along RR rights of way). btw, the Airport station is also underground in addition to Tower City.
And it is completely false to say the system only serves downtown and the airport. The Red Line serves core areas of Univesity Circle -- the 4th largest employment district behind the downtowns of Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati. One-stop across the Cuyahoga River, it serves the central (Market District) of Ohio City, which is the most thriving city neighborhood in terms of housing growth as well as having its own 'downtown' commercial district, which is thriving with TOD construction in recent years, thanks to the Rapid. Other neighborhoods such as Detroit-Shoreway, Cudell-West Blvd and Lakewood's Birdtown are experiencing degrees of turnaround growth near Red Line stations.
And the Blue and Green light rail lines run very much like a heavy rail (subway) operation and run completely grade-separated for 6 miles (from Shaker Square to downtown -- and, then, are mostly grade-separated on the 2.2 mile Waterfront Line extension that wraps around the west and north sides of downtown. In fact, Red Line and Blue & Green Line trains and share the same set of tracks from just E. 55th Station into downtown Tower City (about 2.6 miles). The Central maintenance facility at E. 55th services the entire network of both train types.
This is a ridiculous premise followed by a false statement.
The term "subway" is applied generally to grade-separated heavy rail systems, of which Cleveland's Red Line clearly is. Even you yourself noted Miami should be considered because even though Miami's Metrorail is entirely above-ground, and almost exclusively elevated (poor, unsolid sandy soil conditions negate subway tunneling due to engineering and expense), it still is loosely considered a "subway". We know New York's massive city rail system is called a subway, although many miles of it are either elevated or in open-cut trenches (either by itself or along RR rights of way). btw, the Airport station is also underground in addition to Tower City.
And it is completely false to say the system only serves downtown and the airport. The Red Line serves core areas of Univesity Circle -- the 4th largest employment district behind the downtowns of Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati. One-stop across the Cuyahoga River, it serves the central (Market District) of Ohio City, which is the most thriving city neighborhood in terms of housing growth as well as having its own 'downtown' commercial district, which is thriving with TOD construction in recent years, thanks to the Rapid. Other neighborhoods such as Detroit-Shoreway, Cudell-West Blvd and Lakewood's Birdtown are experiencing degrees of turnaround growth near Red Line stations.
And the Blue and Green light rail lines run very much like a heavy rail (subway) operation and run completely grade-separated for 6 miles (from Shaker Square to downtown -- and, then, are mostly grade-separated on the 2.2 mile Waterfront Line extension that wraps around the west and north sides of downtown. In fact, Red Line and Blue & Green Line trains and share the same set of tracks from just E. 55th Station into downtown Tower City (about 2.6 miles). The Central maintenance facility at E. 55th services the entire network of both train types.
I haven’t visited Cleveland - so my opinion is not very bueno but….
It does looks like it pretty much goes downtown and to the airport and that’s it’s purpose is to shuttle people downtown and to the Airport and that’s it. The TOD looks incredibly poor. None of the stops look like it was meant for anything other than bad park & ride’s. Little Italy seems like a place for pedestrians. E. 79th and many other stops seem like the worst stations (as a place anyone would get off at) I’ve ever saw.
Of course that’s from looking on the interwebz and so my opinion isn’t that valuable as such.
Miami has a pretty good amount of stations that are destinations and pedestrian friendly. I could see myself being content living with no car in Miami and relying a lot on Miami Metrorail. It’s not the best but by US standards I’d rate it near the top. Cleveland. It would seem depressing to rely on the rail transit system
I haven’t visited Cleveland - so my opinion is not very bueno but….
s
It does looks like it pretty much goes downtown and to the airport and that’s it’s purpose is to shuttle people downtown and to the Airport and that’s it. The TOD looks incredibly poor. None of the stops look like it was meant for anything other than bad park & ride’s. Little Italy seems like a place for pedestrians. E. 79th and many other stops seem like the worst stations (as a place anyone would get off at) I’ve ever saw.
Of course that’s from looking on the interwebz and so my opinion isn’t that valuable as such.
Miami has a pretty good amount of stations that are destinations and pedestrian friendly. I could see myself being content living with no car in Miami and relying a lot on Miami Metrorail. It’s not the best but by US standards I’d rate it near the top. Cleveland. It would seem depressing to rely on the rail transit system
While I appreciate your comments, I really think it's best to visit the city, it's neighborhoods and transit to glean a better perspective.
That said: I certainly am not campaigning that Cleveland's rail system is anywhere near the top with the 'Big Boys' like Boston, Washington, Chicago or even SF and, on the "subway" list Cleveland should rate at or near the bottom. But that's OK; for a medium-sized (now) moderate density city of compact geography (only 77 sq. miles of land area), it is better than most by simply having any system at all, let alone a legacy rapid rail system of 34.5 miles.
Ohio City/Duck Island and Uptown-University Circle/Little Italy are very dense walkable neighborhoods. The Red Line does not circulate at all downtown -- just the 1 stop at Tower City. This is largely because of the freeway-mad idiocy of the 1950s era County Engineer named Albert S. Porter, who campaigned vigorously to kill off a downtown loop circulator subway extending Tower City/Public Square. Because Cleveland is, and even was, a moderate/high-moderate density city (high density was in pockets even in the city's heyday the early 1950s), subway tunneling was considered too expensive. Very few cities of Cleveland's makeup and even larger opt to build extensive subways... (probably the closest is Atlanta where, even there, outside of the Peachtree north section of around 4 miles, the bulk of MARTA rail is elevated or at grade next to RR rights of way -- like Cleveland...
Yes, Cleveland's heavy rail Red Line, and a few Blue-Green Line LRT stations, are hampered by sharing ROW's of mainline freight railways, which attracted factories, and not residents, near their rail lines. But even still, there is some walkability growth potential for some of these stations. This is especially true with the long deindustrialization period Cleveland, and other similar cities are going through. Even some factories near the tracks have been adaptive reuse residential structures. In part because of the clearing out, cleaning up along the so-called Opportunity Corridor roadway through the East Side, residential density is slowly growing near stations. E.105/Quincy is a prime example where the Meijer's supermarket chain has just broken ground on a substantial apt/retail mixed-use development just .3 miles from the Red Line station -- another large apt complex, Innovation Square, is going up just south of the Meijer's development, even closer to the E.105th Station. There is also much potential near West Side stations, such as W.65 Eco Village (where the Eco-Village and Aspen Place apts have gone up (and as the Lorain Antiques rehab district continues to extend westward to/around the station (in the lower Detroit-Shoreway neighborhood), train use should continue to grow at the W. 65/Lorain station); the much larger Waverly Station, .3 miles from the Rapid stop, is nearly a decade old. As I mentioned above, the W. 117-Madison station sitting on the Cleveland/Lakewood border is a pretty busy station that attracts bus transferees, drivers (to the park 'n ride lot) as well as lots of pedestrians from the SW ("Birdtown") neighborhood.
But again, you can't really know or understand this without either visiting or really closely studying Greater Cleveland from afar.
This is a ridiculous premise followed by a false statement.
The term "subway" is applied generally to grade-separated heavy rail systems, of which Cleveland's Red Line clearly is. Even you yourself noted Miami should be considered because even though Miami's Metrorail is entirely above-ground, and almost exclusively elevated (poor, unsolid sandy soil conditions negate subway tunneling due to engineering and expense), it still is loosely considered a "subway". We know New York's massive city rail system is called a subway, although many miles of it are either elevated or in open-cut trenches (either by itself or along RR rights of way). btw, the Airport station is also underground in addition to Tower City.
Regarding the term "subway" being applied to heavy-rail systems, I would say, "it depends." To be sure, the RTA Red Line is certainly a heavy-rail line. And yes, it does have two underground stations. (I stand corrected regarding the Airport station.) Not being local to Cleveland, I don't know how often it is referred to as a "subway." The Miami Metrorail is also a heavy-rail line. I have never, not once, ever, heard anyone refer to it as a subway. There's also the Chicago El, some of which runs underground, but one rarely hears it called a subway. I've heard certain stations referred to as "underground el stations" rather than subway stations. Ditto the Market-Frankford Line in Philadelphia, which old timers always call the El even though a fair portion of it runs underground.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
And it is completely false to say the system only serves downtown and the airport. The Red Line serves core areas of Univesity Circle -- the 4th largest employment district behind the downtowns of Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati. One-stop across the Cuyahoga River, it serves the central (Market District) of Ohio City, which is the most thriving city neighborhood in terms of housing growth as well as having its own 'downtown' commercial district, which is thriving with TOD construction in recent years, thanks to the Rapid. Other neighborhoods such as Detroit-Shoreway, Cudell-West Blvd and Lakewood's Birdtown are experiencing degrees of turnaround growth near Red Line stations.
And the Blue and Green light rail lines run very much like a heavy rail (subway) operation and run completely grade-separated for 6 miles (from Shaker Square to downtown -- and, then, are mostly grade-separated on the 2.2 mile Waterfront Line extension that wraps around the west and north sides of downtown. In fact, Red Line and Blue & Green Line trains and share the same set of tracks from just E. 55th Station into downtown Tower City (about 2.6 miles). The Central maintenance facility at E. 55th services the entire network of both train types.
I've ridden the Red and Green lines exactly once in my life, way back in 1993. I should have stated this and thus my comments could have been placed in their proper context. My apologies. I'm glad to hear that Cleveland has been improving since then.
Regarding the term "subway" being applied to heavy-rail systems, I would say, "it depends." To be sure, the RTA Red Line is certainly a heavy-rail line. And yes, it does have two underground stations. (I stand corrected regarding the Airport station.) Not being local to Cleveland, I don't know how often it is referred to as a "subway." The Miami Metrorail is also a heavy-rail line. I have never, not once, ever, heard anyone refer to it as a subway. There's also the Chicago El, some of which runs underground, but one rarely hears it called a subway. I've heard certain stations referred to as "underground el stations" rather than subway stations. Ditto the Market-Frankford Line in Philadelphia, which old timers always call the El even though a fair portion of it runs underground.
Everything you write above is absolutely correct, and even younger Philadelphians manage to pick up the habit of calling the Market-Frankford Line "the El" whether it's above the street or under it. (In Chicago, the written form of the term is 'L' — in single quotes, as here.)
But even though it's not part of the word's definition, which does restrict its use to underground (usually electric) railways, "subway" as a generic catch-all term for a heavy-rail rapid transit system does have a fairly long history as well in the United States. "Metro," the term preferred in Europe, would probably be a better choice, but it hasn't caught on here as a generic, even if it is used to refer to Washington's, Baltimore's and Miami's rapid transit systems/lines. (In Los Angeles, as in many other cities, it's also the word for the entire transit agency, which may also explain why it hasn't caught on.)
Philadelphia's SEPTA and its predecessor, however, were and are pretty fastidious about referring to the rapid transit network at least internally as "subway-elevated."
Everything you write above is absolutely correct, and even younger Philadelphians manage to pick up the habit of calling the Market-Frankford Line "the El" whether it's above the street or under it. (In Chicago, the written form of the term is 'L' — in single quotes, as here.)
But even though it's not part of the word's definition, which does restrict its use to underground (usually electric) railways, "subway" as a generic catch-all term for a heavy-rail rapid transit system does have a fairly long history as well in the United States. "Metro," the term preferred in Europe, would probably be a better choice, but it hasn't caught on here as a generic, even if it is used to refer to Washington's, Baltimore's and Miami's rapid transit systems/lines. (In Los Angeles, as in many other cities, it's also the word for the entire transit agency, which may also explain why it hasn't caught on.)
Philadelphia's SEPTA and its predecessor, however, were and are pretty fastidious about referring to the rapid transit network at least internally as "subway-elevated."
I agree, "Metro" would be a better choice, as it would encompass all heavy-rail lines, be they underground, elevated, or at (grade separated) surface level. Of course, "heavy rail" itself would also work, but I think that's seen as too technical for most people to want to use in everyday conversation. Interestingly, Baltimore's one heavy-rail line is officially called the Metro. However, people tended to call it the subway, even though only a third of its route is underground. The MTA's marketing department coined the term "Metro Subway" and it's caught on pretty well.
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