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I'd put DC ahead of Philly, especially when you factor in 14th St/Logan Circle, Navy Yard/Ballpark, Col Heights, all of which aren't just lively, they've stretched the walkable part of downtown. And the walkable core is even larger when you factor in pedestrian parts of Arlington that connect to DC city limits. Center City doesn't bleed into Camden the way DC does into Rosslyn/Courthouse/Clarendon.
DC is also growing faster, DC/Arl/Alex in aggregate is pushing 11,000 ppsm with almost 1.1 million people, and has grown 15% since 2010 vs. 3.5% for Philly.
I'd put DC ahead of Philly, especially when you factor in 14th St/Logan Circle, Navy Yard/Ballpark, Col Heights, all of which aren't just lively, they've stretched the walkable part of downtown. And the walkable core is even larger when you factor in pedestrian parts of Arlington that connect to DC city limits. Center City doesn't bleed into Camden the way DC does into Rosslyn/Courthouse/Clarendon.
DC is also growing faster, DC/Arl/Alex in aggregate is pushing 11,000 ppsm with almost 1.1 million people, and has grown 15% since 2010 vs. 3.5% for Philly.
I wouldn't at all: Philly has the top 3 best downtown in America, not even #1.
Good observation disagree about DC though. Capital of the greatest country in the world, headquarters of the government, the military, FBI, CIA, NSA, the powerful lobbies and K Street as well as the embassies and museums, Congress, and more. Not many can compete with the power in that town.
Powerful, yes, but not a top 5 downtown.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11
I'd put DC ahead of Philly, especially when you factor in 14th St/Logan Circle, Navy Yard/Ballpark, Col Heights, all of which aren't just lively, they've stretched the walkable part of downtown. And the walkable core is even larger when you factor in pedestrian parts of Arlington that connect to DC city limits. Center City doesn't bleed into Camden the way DC does into Rosslyn/Courthouse/Clarendon.
DC is also growing faster, DC/Arl/Alex in aggregate is pushing 11,000 ppsm with almost 1.1 million people, and has grown 15% since 2010 vs. 3.5% for Philly.
That is not a great assessment. I think its almost uniformly agreed that Philadelphia is a top 3-5 downtown, and DC is top 6-10.
There are still large swaths of DC that are dominated by mid-century brutalist government buildings that become crickets after 7pm.
There is essentially no part of CC that is quiet or untouched by development these days.
And if you want to make a spillover argument, University City/ West Philly extends CC a few miles west. And that last little gap of underdeveloped land is closing between CC and Northern Liberties/ Fishtown.
Also, you are comparing growth patterns for all of Philadelphia to DC, lets stick with greater CC (and not Arlington, Alexandria either) since we are talking about downtown districts.
I have extensively explored each city, both have pros and cons, but I do not see at all how DC has a superior downtown to Philadelphia.
For starters, you can live in Philadelphia without a car, I would hard pressed not having a car in DC.
Finally, I think both cities are going through a renaissance, walking through Philadelphia or DC in 1995 vs 2018 is a drastically different experience (for the better), and both cities show no signs of slowing down.
I'd put DC ahead of Philly, especially when you factor in 14th St/Logan Circle, Navy Yard/Ballpark, Col Heights, all of which aren't just lively, they've stretched the walkable part of downtown. And the walkable core is even larger when you factor in pedestrian parts of Arlington that connect to DC city limits. Center City doesn't bleed into Camden the way DC does into Rosslyn/Courthouse/Clarendon.
DC is also growing faster, DC/Arl/Alex in aggregate is pushing 11,000 ppsm with almost 1.1 million people, and has grown 15% since 2010 vs. 3.5% for Philly.
Downtown DC clearly has a much more sprawling downtown, but it's VERY office/jobs dominated, with very little historic residential neighborhood fabric to speak of (only referring to the core here; abutting neighborhoods like Adams Morgan, Dupont and Columbia Heights are a very different story). It's also exclusively "low-rise" in its character, so it doesn't have the same urban intensity as Philly, to say nothing of the stark lack of finely-grained structures and narrow streets that characterize Center City and its surrounding areas. These are all attributes that lend to more of a satisfying/interesting downtown experience in Philly.
That's not to say DC isn't growing/transforming at an impressive pace, because it certainly is, but Philly, too, is also continuing to bolster its downtown and densify within an even smaller land area. Your Philly assessment also neglects to consider the seamless integration of Center City with South Philly neighborhoods, and increasingly, West Philly (which is already much more connected to Philly's Center City core than anything in NoVA is connected to DC).
That is not a great assessment. I think its almost uniformly agreed that Philadelphia is a top 3-5 downtown, and DC is top 6-10.
There are still large swaths of DC that are dominated by mid-century brutalist government buildings that become crickets after 7pm.
There is essentially no part of CC that is quiet or untouched by development these days.
And if you want to make a spillover argument, University City/ West Philly extends CC a few miles west. And that last little gap of underdeveloped land is closing between CC and Northern Liberties/ Fishtown.
Also, you are comparing growth patterns for all of Philadelphia to DC, lets stick with greater CC (and not Arlington, Alexandria either) since we are talking about downtown districts.
I have extensively explored each city, both have pros and cons, but I do not see at all how DC has a superior downtown to Philadelphia.
For starters, you can live in Philadelphia without a car, I would hard pressed not having a car in DC.
Finally, I think both cities are going through a renaissance, walking through Philadelphia or DC in 1995 vs 2018 is a drastically different experience (for the better), and both cities show no signs of slowing down.
Ummm, DC certainly has much better public transportation than Philly, is nearly 40% car free (second only to NYC), and has some of the highest commute to work by bike and walking than nearly every city. Not a fair assessment.
Ummm, DC certainly has much better public transportation than Philly, is nearly 40% car free (second only to NYC), and has some of the highest commute to work by bike and walking than nearly every city. Not a fair assessment.
"Much better" is debatable. Metro is much more modernized than SEPTA for sure (although when living in DC several years ago, it was palpably going downhill), but in terms of access and usability, DC and Philly are actually nearly identical on the "transit score": https://www.redfin.com/blog/2018/02/...t-in-2018.html
"Much better" is debatable. Metro is much more modernized than SEPTA for sure (although when living in DC several years ago, it was palpably going downhill), but in terms of access and usability, DC and Philly are actually nearly identical on the "transit score": https://www.redfin.com/blog/2018/02/...t-in-2018.html
Also notice the change. Philly increased 0.1% while DC decreased 2.2%. Philly a top 5 downtown for sure. Number 1 is obviously NYC, after that we can argue about Chicago/SF/Philly/Boston. That's the top 5 in the US. Tier 2 of ranking 6-10 is generally between LA, DC, Seattle, Portland OR, and one other.
Philly's downtown is fairly compact and very tall.
But, we can't yet crown Philly as America's next Emerald City.
The problem with Philly's urban core, is it is still punctuated by grittiness, dirtiness
and if i dare say, a fair amount of blight. It's just a fact.
DC has far less grittiness, dirtiness and blight.
DC has a gigantic quantity of expansive, relatively safe, walkable neighborhoods.
Philly is making strides, but it can't make any such claim, on a scale that is favorable with DC. Not yet. It's economic expansion just doesn't possess the reach to put it near the level of DC or Boston.
Philly has a ton of Urban Renewal still ahead. A TON.
You have to walk far too many several thousands of feet in many parts of Chicago to get to the nearest rail transit stop. If you are elderly, you are absolutely screwed. To many neighborhoods are only well serviced by bus. That's the reason it ranks so low on the Redfin list. It's lower ranking is justified.
Philly's weakness is having only two heavy rail EL lines + the PATCO Line (not a sufficient number of people live in dense neighborhoods such to be able to take proper advantage of the PATCO).
It's trolly lines score an incomplete.
Philly's strength is its EMU (electrified commuter rail) network which is very strong compared to many cities including Chicago, San Francisco and Boston.
I'd certainly rank Philly ahead of Chicago on commuter rail.
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