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I'm guessing you're a Boston guy. You should get it. Your town was a legacy (back to the founding of this country) that dealt with some hard times.. maybe not to the extent of "Rust Belt" but Boston bounced back in a major way, yes, in due to being coastal, but also due to being coastal and having legacy type amenities. Guess what? Cities like St. Louis; Cleveland and Detroit really have a lot of those same amenities. They are just decades behind in building back up.
Its anecdotal, but wasnt the slogan in the Confederate "The South will rise again." Yeah, they turned out to be right. ... 150 years later. At the same time, why cant the Midwest rise again? You know history repeats itself and our world (sorry flat earthers) is cyclical.
They can, but I can tell you that there are no vast swaths of empty land pockmarked by a building or two here or there in Boston of the kind you find on St. Louis' north side. (A good chunk of Kansas City's old black neighborhood look like that now too.)
The road back is longer for both St. Louis and Detroit.
One thing the south has going for it is, obviously, is its relatively favorable climate. I get some people actually like winters in the Great Lakes, but there are a ton of people who simply don't want to deal with persistent grey/overcast skies, frequent nuisance snow events and a constant deep snow pack for several months of the year. People did tolerate it in order to make a solid / upper middle class living working on the assembly lines and in the steel mills, but those opportunities are much fewer and farther between today and the incentive to move there / stick around is much less. Yes, places like Atlanta, Nashville, Charlotte, etc. can get hot for a period in the summer, but that's easily tempered by A/C.
Cities in the south also have the lack of legacy costs (such as pensions) and relatively brand new infrastructure that won't require a massive overhaul any time soon, since they're only now coming of age.
As far as places in the Northeast like Boston, one thing they have going for them is an education ecosystem that really can't be rivaled elsewhere. This is very critical in an era where our economy is being driven by tech companies that desire the best and brightest minds for their workforce. Yes, Detroit has U of M and Pittsburgh has CMU, but they're not really on the same level as places like Harvard and MIT. Boston also has a pretty effective and extensive mass transit system in place which is a huge advantage for individuals who want to enjoy a car-free lifestyle in an urban environment.
That said, I do definitely think Rust Belt cities have strong potential if they can ever become major economic draws again, like they did during the 20th century with manufacturing and the auto industry. The land/real estate is cheap and the infrastructure (albeit aging) is already in place for growth. Plus, they have the access to plenty of fresh water going for it, especially if water supply in other parts of the country/world starts to become an issue, as well as a relatively low risk of natural disasters given the potentially negative impacts effects climate change will have in some locations. All of that said, I just don't think the comparisons with the Bostons and Atlantas of the country are reasonable either.
Last edited by citidata18; 09-19-2018 at 11:51 PM..
The general idea is you can tell these cities used to to big and are no longer as large.
You’re not mistaking St Louis 1955 with St Louis 2018 other than a (relatively)short stretch of some streets.
Since big buildings tend not to be demolished as quickly Downtowns stood the test of time better so Pine St in St Louis or Market Street may seen Philly-esque but it fades really quickly into reality if you explore a bit more.
Same with Buffalo, Main Street or Pearl Street might resemble a bigger city (especially on Sabre or Bandits game day) but exploring the city more it becomes clear it isn’t.
I don’t think anyone is saying that these cities are the same as they were in the past. However, even now, for the populations they current have within the city proper, they are still more dense and it is more apparent in areas of these cities that are popular or intact. So, while they may have areas that aren’t intact, they are quite small anyway and even for the population they have now, while having intact areas that are more dense that many cities that are growing(in population and even land area).
I don’t think anyone is saying that these cities are the same as they were in the past. However, even now, for the populations they current have within the city proper, they are still more dense and it is more apparent in areas of these cities that are popular or intact. So, while they may have areas that aren’t intact, they are quite small anyway and even for the population they have now, while having intact areas that are more dense that many cities that are growing(in population and even land area).
The overall population really isn’t that dense. Compare Cincinnati or St Louis to Providence. Providence hits 303,000 in 33sq miles. Cincy is 77sq miles and St Louis is 61. And Providence is the much smaller city. Buffalo is probably the outlier in its density is still over 6,000ppsm.
The difference between say 4,800ppsm and 3,700ppsm isn’t that noticeable and that’s where we are at today with the Rust Belt vs Sunbelt.
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
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Everyone seems to think that Phoenix is some mid sized backwater, but in fact we are the 12th largest metro area in the country, with Phoenix city being the 5th biggest city in the country, and we are one of only 13 metros that have teams in all of the Big 4 pro sports (MLB,NFL,NBA,NHL)
The overall population really isn’t that dense. Compare Cincinnati or St Louis to Providence. Providence hits 303,000 in 33sq miles. Cincy is 77sq miles and St Louis is 61. And Providence is the much smaller city. Buffalo is probably the outlier in its density is still over 6,000ppsm.
The difference between say 4,800ppsm and 3,700ppsm isn’t that noticeable and that’s where we are at today with the Rust Belt vs Sunbelt.
That is still a higher density, which proves the point I was making and you have to keep in mind the intact areas vs. those that aren’t in Rust Belt cities, yet still have a higher density. That means anything intact is going to be even more dense and many times more so that anything in most growing cities.
Providence is very dense for an American and even area, given that it is the 3rd smallest metro in land area with a population of at least a million people. Only Buffalo and Hartford have smaller metro land areas. So, Providence is just dense in comparison to the vast majority of cities/metro areas.
Also, why is Providence being used when it isn’t a “Sun Belt” city/area?
That is still a higher density, which proves the point I was making and you have to keep in mind the intact areas vs. those that aren’t in Rust Belt cities, yet still have a higher density. That means anything intact is going to be even more dense and many times more so that anything in most growing cities.
Providence is very dense for an American and even area, given that it is the 3rd smallest metro in land area with a population of at least a million people. Only Buffalo and Hartford have smaller metro land areas. So, Providence is just dense in comparison to the vast majority of cities/metro areas.
Also, why is Providence being used when it isn’t a “Sun Belt” city/area?
The problem here is we've devolved the Rust Belt vs Sun Belt debate into primarily a density/"bones" conversation without being accepting of other factors that contribute to a city being perceived as large or small...
A portion of this convo hinged on Cleveland vs Charlotte, I maintain that if someone is honest and unbiased, there is no way Cleveland feels larger than Charlotte. Maybe Charlotte wouldn't feel larger to one either, but Cleveland doesn't feel larger. The examples given all centered around density and urban bones, and nobody vouching for Cleveland allowed for any other consideration...
Matter of fact, none of the Cleveland backers have even confirmed they've been to Charlotte to even make a fair comparison...
The problem here is we've devolved the Rust Belt vs Sun Belt debate into primarily a density/"bones" conversation without being accepting of other factors that contribute to a city being perceived as large or small...
A portion of this convo hinged on Cleveland vs Charlotte, I maintain that if someone is honest and unbiased, there is no way Cleveland feels larger than Charlotte. Maybe Charlotte wouldn't feel larger to one either, but Cleveland doesn't feel larger. The examples given all centered around density and urban bones, and nobody vouching for Cleveland allowed for any other consideration...
Matter of fact, none of the Cleveland backers have even confirmed they've been to Charlotte to even make a fair comparison...
What are the other factors then? Whatever they are should be a part of the discussion.
The other factors were a part of the discussion, I've already mentioned some of them....
Got it...I think the discussion in terms of bones/density has overtaken the discussion is likely due to it being more definitive in terms of data. So, that likely plays a part in terms of the direction of the thread.
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