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Just to vouch for Pittsburgh for a second. Market Square is one of the best urban spaces in the entire country IMO.
The best parts of Pittsburgh are certainly enviable. I'd probably rank them:
1. Pittsburgh (Market Square is what I wish Public Square in Cleveland were)
2/3. Cleveland/Cincinnati (toss up for me- Ohio City and OTR lead the way here for each respectively imo)
4. Detroit
5. Indianapolis
6. Louisville (a pretty distant 6th)
I agree, Pittsburgh has a lot going for it in terms of vibrant, dense/compact, old/historical, interesting, trendy, walkable neighborhoods, notably the ones mentioned -- I'd even throw in Dormont, esp along Liberty Ave and at Potomac Ave (directly accessible by T light rail btw)...
But, in saying this, don't these areas "suffer" from the same "problems" some posters unfairly sling at Cleveland? notably that they're isolated "nodes" where people, esp walkers, have to overcome significant barriers like steep hills (and even the struggling Hill District) to get to Oakland, btw. Or crossing the river and going through an empty industrial area to get to South Side, or traveling through empty areas and steep valleys to get to East Liberty or Bloomfield or Squirrel Hill, or Grandview/Mt. Washington (my God, you have to both cross a river and ride an incline, as quirky and interesting though this may be, just to get to this neighborhood), etc... I would say Pittsburgh is more extreme than Cleveland, in this sense, with overall lesser quality mass transit (though PAT is, indeed, very good).
It just depends what corridor you take in Pittsburgh. The walking routes I listed don't really have big dead zones or steep hills at all, and most have pretty consistent business areas thorughout. So if you take the right corridor, Pittsburgh is actually very good in that respect. The river bridges aren't that huge, and they're interesting to walk over, so its no big deal at all. Now if you went through Uptown to the East End through 5th or Forbes, that's a different story, but hopefully that will be getting better after the new BRT lines to Oakland are done.
The only one with a dead zone that I listed, is going to south side flats from downtown, in the old industrial area you mentioned. That is acutally in the process of quite a bit of development going on or getting ready to start, so it will be much better pretty soon -- but it really not a bad walk at all, unless you go at night, then its kinda creepy.
Regardling transit, Pittsburgh has a lot higher total ridership than Cleveland does. So Cleveland's system may be better to certain people for certain things, but overall Pittsburgh's is much more used. For example through 3rd quarter 2018 Cleveland system had 26 million riders and Pittsrugh system had 48.5 million riders.
The best parts of Pittsburgh are certainly enviable. I'd probably rank them:
1. Pittsburgh (Market Square is what I wish Public Square in Cleveland were)
2/3. Cleveland/Cincinnati (toss up for me- Ohio City and OTR lead the way here for each respectively imo)
4. Detroit
5. Indianapolis
6. Louisville (a pretty distant 6th)
I see Pittsburgh's Market Square as, while interesting, not as central to their downtown and Public Square is to Cleveland. Public Square is Cleveland's crossroads and front room whereas I don't see Market Square as this; it's kind of off-to-the-side... I more compare Market Square to Cleveland's 4th Street-- a lively, walkable foodie & club district.
I love Ohio City, and its future is very bright with all the development happening, but OTR edges it out in my book, just because if its older history and higher density. Ohio City is more neighborhood-y while OTR is more downtown-ish... Both are great, historic neighborhoods, though, and have high-walkability, great, historic old-style market places (Findlay-OTR, West Side Market- Ohio City) access to quality transit and great shops and eateries, among other things.
Regardling transit, Pittsburgh has a lot higher total ridership than Cleveland does. So Cleveland's system may be better to certain people for certain things, but overall Pittsburgh's is much more used. For example through 3rd quarter 2018 Cleveland system had 26 million riders and Pittsrugh system had 48.5 million riders.
No question. I attribute this to a couple factors:
1. Pittsburgh has a much stronger downtown employment base than Cleveland... Downtown Cleveland was decimated by corporate closures and relocation(s) stretching from the late 1970s well into the 2000s, when Eaton Corp relocated its large HQ employment center from downtown to Highland Hills...
2. Typography. Downtown Pittsburgh, aka the Golden Triangle, is small, tight (dominated by narrow streets) and surrounded by physical barriers on all 3 sides of its triangle: 2 wide rivers on the triangle's sides and steep hills along its base (to the east). It makes driving to and around downtown foreboding, esp during rush hour. Also many Pittsburgh neighborhoods and suburbs are also along steep hills and are separated by these and/or one of the rivers.
Downtown Cleveland, by contrast, is dominated by wide, car-friendly avenues with only a few narrow streets in between (ie. E. 6th, ("Short") Vincent, E. 12th and 13th, Bolivar and a few others). And while the Cuyahoga River and valley (the Flats) are something of a barrier to the West, the larger East Side is not faced with these barriers. Instead drivers may enter along one of several wide avenues... Its about to get even easier once the angled, higher-speed Opportunity Corridor comes on line in a few years.
In accord with this accessibility, downtown Cleveland has tons (too much) cheap, accessible parking, often in the form of maddening surface lots -- although, happily, these lots are steadily being developed into high density apartments and office buildings.
While there has been a smaller but steady re-migration of businesses back into downtown, its doubtful that downtown will match its glory days up through the late 1970s as a headquarters, office worker destination. As you know, many old office buildings abandoned by corporations, law firms and the like have been/are being, re-purposed into apartments and condos. Downtown Pittsburgh hasn't suffered corporate and job losses anywhere near Cleveland's, so the need neighborhood or suburb-to-downtown commuting just doesn't exist in Cleveland these days as it still does for Pittsburgh. And spokes-to-hub rush hour commuting is the bread 'n butter for almost all American big-city transit networks.
Cleveland, on the other hand, has developed a considerably stronger downtown residential/resident(s) presence than Pittsburgh, which tends to completely empty out by 7p on weekdays much as Cleveland's downtown did up through the 1990s until the mass movement for downtown residents began in full force and continues to this day.
Everyone should keep in mind that the OP never said they all had to be walkable to each other, they just wondered where there were walkable with shops/restaurants/bars in each city. Someone else injected the “you can’t walk to another from another” aspect that derailed this entire thread. Every city has them, Pgh just has a significant amount more.
FWIW, what I challenged was the idea that Cleveland is "highly compact." It's not a city like Columbus, Louisville, or Cincinnati where the peak walkable neighborhoods are all situated relatively close to Downtown. The nodes are a bit more diffuse.
Not being compact isn't a bad thing. Hell, one could argue it's a good thing, because it means there's too much to explore in a city to do it all in a day trip or even a weekend. Pittsburgh is also a "too much for a weekend" kinda place, for much the same reason. No one calls Chicago, NYC, or Philly compact.
FWIW, what I challenged was the idea that Cleveland is "highly compact." It's not a city like Columbus, Louisville, or Cincinnati where the peak walkable neighborhoods are all situated relatively close to Downtown. The nodes are a bit more diffuse.
Not being compact isn't a bad thing. Hell, one could argue it's a good thing, because it means there's too much to explore in a city to do it all in a day trip or even a weekend. Pittsburgh is also a "too much for a weekend" kinda place, for much the same reason. No one calls Chicago, NYC, or Philly compact.
Oh I get where you are coming from and agree. I travel to Cleveland a fair amount for work and I find it has a open feel to it, and for this Pittsburger it can be uncomfortable or perhaps better described as strikingly different. I have grown accustomed to our narrowness of our streets and the contrasting levels of the topography.
I would like to point out a flaw in using city limits for walkscore is Louisville city limits are 300 sq miles and Cleveland is 78. As much as Large city limits skew extensive properties (namely Population) small city limits skew intensive proporties like Density or walkscore by simply omitting outer more suburban neighborhoods.
Finally a voice of reason. Louisville is smaller than CLE. So is Columbus. They are more compact, more tourist friendly. So is Indy. It's why all three cities see more conventions and are growing and CLE is NOT.
I already explained how Walkscore is biased against Louisville and many other cities south of the OH for that matter. These cities have linear commercial development versus commercial cross density, but that is rapidly changing in Louisville.
Louisville is just easier to get around, and so is Columbus. Part of the reason is neither got as big as CLE but with the exception of pro sports, doesn't offer much more.
It takes me every bit of an hour to get from Little Italy to the West side market, including walking and waiting on trains. I probably did it once on a Sunday when it was a ghost town with no pro games in 35 minutes. That's a trip I make frequently in CLE. If you walk 5 mins to get to the stop, miss one train, then wait for the next, you are already in a minimum 20 mins, and the trains do NOT run every 15 mins especially off peak hours. Then it's probably a 15 min train ride across town and another 5 mins waking into whereever you want in Ohio City. Cleveland doesn't have enough commerce to fill up its bones and you know it.
Meanwhile, Lime, Bird, and Louvelo (yes I realize every city has these now) are the great equalizer for cities like Louisville and Columbus. All the benefits of mass transit but none of the ills like crime, panhandlers, etc. Louisville even has Loulift....a totally FREE electric bus that showcases all of the tourist attractions along Main, Market, and 4th.So does CLE have cooler transit than Louisville for an urban nerd? Absolutely. Is Louisville much better for a casual tourist? Absoultely and the tourism numbers and hotel contstcutions prove it. Louisville is not going to be recognized in 5 years. I was downtown today with the kids at the science center in Louisville and literally saw thousands and hoardes of people flocking to main street. Very impressive in Louisville if you haven't been lately on a weekend. Louisville is also building Bus Rapid Transit to the SW suburbs.
I am literally going to take a poll of 100 local NE Ohioans the next time I come up in May and see how safe they feel on RTA after dark and not on a game day.
FWIW, what I challenged was the idea that Cleveland is "highly compact." It's not a city like Columbus, Louisville, or Cincinnati where the peak walkable neighborhoods are all situated relatively close to Downtown. The nodes are a bit more diffuse.
Not being compact isn't a bad thing. Hell, one could argue it's a good thing, because it means there's too much to explore in a city to do it all in a day trip or even a weekend. Pittsburgh is also a "too much for a weekend" kinda place, for much the same reason. No one calls Chicago, NYC, or Philly compact.
In Cleveland's case it's not good...too much vacancy in the areas not traversed much which is why it is effectively a mid sized city/medium large one, not the big east coast cities it dreams of wanting to be. And there is nothing wrong with that. Cleveland is very comparable to all the cities here....just not as easily explored as most reasonable non homers agree it's not compact.
It took me every bit of an hour to get from Little Italy to the West side market, including walking and waiting on trains.
Considering that both Little Italy and the West Side Market are both adjacent to their respective Red Line stations and considering its usually about 14-16 minutes to Little Italy and 3-4 mins to Ohio City from Tower City (total travel time 18-21 mins with a 1-min layover in Tower City), either you are an extremely slow walker or there was some breakdown in service on the trains the time you traveled, which run at least every 15 minutes (base) every 10 minutes or less (rush hour).
No way it takes an hour from Little Italy to the West Side Market via the Red Line, unless you're making stuff up... which I wouldn't put past you given your extreme, and very weird, paranoia re Cleveland.
In Cleveland's case it's not good...too much vacancy in the areas not traversed much which is why it is effectively a mid sized city/medium large one, not the big east coast cities it dreams of wanting to be. And there is nothing wrong with that. Cleveland is very comparable to all the cities here....just not as easily explored as most reasonable non homers agree it's not compact.
Cleveland is less compact than Louisville because it’s a bigger city than Louisville.
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