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Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
This really drives home my point about why the city and metro shouldn't be conflated.
I remember in a DC vs Boston thread it as which city is more cosmopolitan. I said "Boston, easily."
I said DC was a more cosmopolitan metro, for sure. Having lived in Boston and DC it was so so obvious to me that Boston as a city was much more cosmopolitan. But Boston's suburbs had no scalable comparison to Montgomery County or Even Howard County. You really didn't see the type of diversity you see in NoVa over broad sections of Eastern MA. But you really don't have the diversity of a Dorchester or even a Mission Hill Hyde Park in DC city limits. It straight-up does not exist.
These things/distinction DO matter.
Boston posters back to bringing up DC I see...
The issue is you could simply point the radi for DC to the West instead of the East, dropping off East of the Anacostia, and bringing in parts of Alexandria/Arlington to make up the rest of that 61 sq mi, and the diversity jumps immediately. I agree that DC is way more "American" of a city proper on paper, but spend a day in either city's downtown back to back, I don't think it feels any greater or lesser cosmo feel in either.
Not saying that city proper has no different feel at all than adding suburbs, but it's mitigated also more for DC being that the volume of commuters for 12 hrs of the day are moving around the city with no one knowing who's suburban or not, or even if they're an out of towner. Example I constantly see Asians in DC proper. Like always, there's never a time I'd be in a hotspots in various corners of the city and not see numerous Asians. Being a "small" city proper in that regard helps with the appearance of city diversity.
What really needs to be measured, and where we actually 'feel' something is Urban Area. It encompasses significant "area" but isn't a bloated number. Plus the two UA's aren't that far off in size:
The issue is you could simply point the radi for DC to the West instead of the East, dropping off East of the Anacostia, and bringing in parts of Alexandria/Arlington to make up the rest of that 61 sq mi, and the diversity jumps immediately. I agree that DC is way more "American" of a city proper on paper, but spend a day in either city's downtown back to back, I don't think it feels any greater or lesser cosmo feel in either.
Not saying that city proper has no different feel at all than adding suburbs, but it's mitigated also more for DC being that the volume of commuters for 12 hrs of the day are moving around the city with no one knowing who's suburban or not, or even if they're an out of towner. Example I constantly see Asians in DC proper. Like always, there's never a time I'd be in a hotspots in various corners of the city and not see numerous Asians. Being a "small" city proper in that regard helps with the appearance of city diversity.
What really needs to be measured, and where we actually 'feel' something is Urban Area.7
This is just echoing what I said.
UA is a million of people and is 80%+ suburbs. No one would call Hamilton MA urban. Not the city. Which is what I said. The Urban Area doesn't impact the feel of Southeast DC or East Boston in the slightest. It’s n out like you’re getting a noticeable contingent of Franconia and McLean residents in any given neighborhood… Its just as bloated as the MSA.
This is why the City information is posted and why it provides value. As someone who actually grew up in a city, the commuters are commuters- you don't think of them as the same as residents and yes more than half the time I can tell when someone is super waspy or by how they dress, talk where I meet them that they're not from the city. It's definitely not hard to tell, most people can spot a suburban person... To your point, Boston is much more nodal, socially segregated, and balkanized with fewer people needing to congregate Downtown for basic needs or employment. With few minority-owned or even ethnic-owned businesses in the Downtown area, that is by design. More walkable human-scale retail corridors compared to EOTR or the massive but efficient suburban strip malls, garden-style apartments, big box malls and and roads. The layout and limited road network of Boston also plays a role.
The UA is not the appropriate field for the feel of a city unless maybe you're trying to gauge the demographics at a tourist trap or downtown for an hour or two- that is not the primary mode in which people interact with cities. How often do people go to Downtown Boston in a month? probably once, maybe twice... Im talking about actual residents' exposure. And not an elitist transplant. But even near Downtown... DCs Chinatown vs Bostons? that is kind of the best example.
The actual neighborhoods that make up 95% of the city's land and is dramatically different If you lived in the city it's a major difference not just on the street but culturally, and linguistically, and how the politicians address constituents and in relation to what type of initiatives are started in the city. In DC they always emphasized black this and that in Boston the focus and terminology are usually focused on immigrant populations because they are the source of population growth and the service industry- in DC domestic Americans move in much more often and dominate the service sectors and schools. You'll never go to a random park in Southwest DC that's been renovated and they read off remarks in Kriola, Kreyol, Spanish, Vietnamese, and Gaelic ...that is just not a thing that would happen until you get out to the suburbs which for various reasons are more cosmopolitan than DC itself. It's far more than just paper.
If you were to grow up in DC versus growing up in Boston as an average citizen- you will be much more familiar with a wide stroke of culture in Boston than you would in DC. Washington DC is not in the Boston tier or the cosmopolitan population- that's just an objective fact. And it's painfully obvious anecdotally but also in the stats. The difference is just too vast. 13 to 2
If you go to Adams Village you will run into recently arrived Irish speaking Gaelic at the Santander Bank. If you go to Uphams you will run into Cape Verdeans eating cachupa. If you go to Codman Hill you will be able to treat yourself to Spirulina and the best tin Urban and Caribbean music from Spark FM. If you go to Roslindale Square you can get some Greek pastries like Baklava. Go to the Polish Triangle, the Latin Quarter, Little Siagon, or Nubian Square... substantially engage in the city. Maybe go to Hyde Pakr and visit Little Haiti or the Nigerian American Association of Boston.
But break it out to the Urban Area and yea someone in Great Falls is exposed to a wider array of cultures than Someone in Medway, MA. The way that diversity and such breaks down in cities is very Much of that has to different and do with urban planning and time of development. But some places like Houston and Miami can do cosmopolitan diversity in the suburbs just as well as the city. Why DC can't do that or why Bosotn cant do that probably has to do with their age.
Shifting DC boundaries to Arlington would be a start but it still would not close the gap. Even worse- If you were to expand Boston up to 61 square miles and include Chelsea Everett Malden and Cambridge Boston would be like 35% foreign Born and be wayyy wayyy out of DC's sphere. DCs cosmo edge would begin after like 80 square miles. It's a similar situation as the density where DC is a larger more dense metro but its core is more manageable and approachable..
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 03-08-2023 at 11:02 PM..
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
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^^^ Forget adding suburbs in VA because you don't have to even cross the river...Just walking across the street to Maryland along cities of the DC border, the diversity immediately jumps, and this can't be quantified by anything posted on city-data. At 48 sq mi, vs 61 sq mi Boston's got better enclaves of diversity yes. But you literally go North/Northeast direction in DC and there's an immediate bump in how diverse the place feels. By your logic Silver Spring, MD is more cosmopolitan than both Boston and DC, and it's 34% foreign born. Does someone living on Rittenhouse St. NW DC who can walk up the street to Silver Spring have less cultural access just because SE DC is such an AA area?
Even at just within the DC beltway alone it feels and IS significantly diverse with nationalities or ethnicities from all over. The main difference between the two cities proper is one has a huge African American base taking up 1/4th of the city in EOTR. Obviously keeping the city proper itself more African American based which brings percentages way down.
Last edited by the resident09; 03-09-2023 at 01:03 PM..
DC’s most diverse neighborhoods are in Wards 1,4, and 5. Certain neighborhoods like Columbia heights, petworth, fort totten, Brightwood etc. Are diverse and full of foreign born residents. Boston is more diverse but I don’t think it’s necessarily accurate to assume a Boston resident is so much more exposed to different cultures than a DC resident.
^^^ Forget adding suburbs in VA because you don't have to even cross the river...Just walking across the street to Maryland along cities of the DC border, the diversity immediately jumps, and this can't be quantified by anything posted on city-data. At 48 sq mi, vs 61 sq mi Boston's got better enclaves of diversity yes. But you literally go North/Northeast direction in DC and there's an immediate bump in how diverse the place feels. By your logic Silver Spring, MD is more cosmopolitan than both Boston and DC, and it's 34% foreign born. Does someone living on Rittenhouse St. NW DC who can walk up the street to Silver Spring have less cultural access just because SE DC is such an AA area?
Even at just within the DC beltway alone it feels and IS significantly diverse with nationalities or ethnicities from all over. The main difference between the two cities proper is one has a huge African American base taking up 1/4th of the city in EOTR. Obviously keeping the city proper itself more African American based which brings percentages way down.
No, it doesn't it's overwhelmingly black Americans. I was there. It's not "diverse" until you get to Hyattsville maybe Bladensburg? There are West African further afield in Landover and Largo butI could say the same about Lowell MA none of that is DC or is Boston.
The closer census tracts and CDPs you're silently referring to have single-digit foreign-born lol. Walker Mill and Oxon Hill feel like AA suburbia because they are. They're basically as homogenous as white outer ring Boston suburbs.
The difference is Boston has twice as many foreign-born as percentage and comes from a much wider set of countries. On a city vs city level, there's no comparison that makes sense.
Silver Spring is more cosmopolitan than DC for sure- but its immigrant base isn't nearly as varied as Bostons. 34% foreign-born vs 29% isnt big enough IMO to cover the gap and Silver Spring doesn't have as many white immigrants and nationalities as Boston, nor as many tropical Latinos. Its almost singularly dominated by Ethiopians and Ertireans.
Places like Malden Everett Revre Chelsea are 45%+ foreign-born and follow the built form and socioeconomics of Boston neighborhoods that are equivalent. With noticeable concentrations of central Americans, Moroccans, Brazilians, Haitians, and Laotians. It's a much larger contingent than Silver Spring. Just Malden and Everett combined are more populace than Hyattsville and Silver Spring combined....
To the immediate south, you have Quincy MA which is home to 25,000+ Chinese Americans.
Your argument for DC diversity is the exact point im saying you have to bring in Silver Spring, and a bunch of other places to even get close.
The ethos is very different. DC was never inundated with European immigrants or early West Indian immigrants like Boston was, so the basic DNA of the city is just different. DC is much more defined by African American and domestic migration. Both of Boston's mayor's last two elected mayors are children of immigrants one from Ireland and one from Taiwan. Even the interim Mayor had a grandparent from Guyana.
On the City Council, there are two 2nd generation Dominicans, a 2nd generation Haitian American, an Irish immigrant, a Jamaican-Barbadian, A Puerto Rican, and a 2nd generation Italian-Mexican.
You can advocate for UA and MSA numbers but I do see what you can logically argue on a city level. If it were close Id be more open to a real back and forth. As it stands the numbers speak for themselves. The whole EOTR dappens the argument, but much of DC in general just feels so much more American.
I've had the privilege to go all over all 8 of DCs wards and see all of Boston - i don't think you have, and if you have been confined to tourist areas of Boston and Cambridge but have never been to Malden or Fields Corner then to an extent- I can understand the desire to debate this. The lived experience and data says otherwise though.
Boston is more diverse but I don’t think it’s necessarily accurate to assume a Boston resident is so much more exposed to different cultures than a DC resident.
Why not? Not only is that supported anecdotally, it's the logical conclusion. I guess it depends on where the Boston resident lives, whether are they natives and what do you define a so much more. I could also see the argument that the balkanization and segregation of Boston can have an effect. Still- Boston is geographically small...25% smaller than DC difficult too say. DC is easier to move around with less glaring inequities or variations WOTR, and a more widespread "downtown" so that may result in more intermingling. Advantageous for DC people who live in areas without many immigrants or ethnic diversity.
I would say a typical DC resident is more exposed to Black American, Salvadoran, and Ethiopian Cultures
Whereas a typical Bostonian is more exposed to Italian American, Irish American, Brazilian, Portuguese, Chinese, Vietnamese, Greek, Cape Verdean, Dominican, Puerto Rican, and Haitian cultures.
West African cultures in each city are probably a wash, Somali exposure might be a wash too. Both are too small to enter the municipal/political zeitgeist in the same way the aforementioned groups do. There's an edge in Koreans in DC, and an edge in Moserattians and Afro-Hondurans in Boston. Theres too many smaller groups to parse out.
Now you break it out into the metro and Boston and DC operate in very different ways with DC having more gradual gradients of ethnic diversity and more consistency (pretty much all of Moco/ Nova). Boston has deep pockets of diverse satellite cities (think Lowell Cambodians/Liberians/Dominicans/French Canadians, Watertown Armenians, Worcester Eastern Europenas/Ghanians/Ricans) and then large swaths of little to no ethnic diversity. But most of those people don't go into Boston with any frequency, many haven't been back since the pandemic.
I will say DC gets a much more diverse and cosmopolitan array of visitors than Boston does- for obvious reasons.
Most importantly people of a lower socioeconomic status/origin (that's me) are probably exposed to more diversity throughout the Boston metro than their counterparts in the DC metro due to social networks, programming, and so on. People of Higher socioeconomic status in DC are probably exposed to more diversity than their counterparts in the Boston metro due to the racial homogeneity of high-earners in Boston's MSA and the higher social status and more recent arrivals of DC's immigrant base.
This makes sense in the space of city-data forums which skew older and higher income.
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 03-09-2023 at 02:21 PM..
DC’s most diverse neighborhoods are in Wards 1,4, and 5. Certain neighborhoods like Columbia heights, petworth, fort totten, Brightwood etc. Are diverse and full of foreign born residents.
Meh.. not really. Diverse though yes and maybe some of that populations is 2nd gen.
Places in North Jersey and suburban DC impressed me with their cosmopolitanism much more than DC itself where most of the immigrants were of 2 groups, but also they seemed more mainstreamed with less deep and storied ethnic pockets. DC is diverse, I'm strictly talking Cosmopolitan though.
And off of DC, it's just the perfect comparable-sized, population, wealthy city to Boston I am very familiar with. Theres no axe to grind here- its just super convenient. It's just interesting to look at how each metro is put together very differently. It's not just the origin of the immigration its the settlement patterns, and the class status too. I think many cities are probably more like Boston (thinking of Philly, and Chicago) whereas it seems sunbelt cities are more like DC. But some legacy cities like NYC can have extreme diversity in its suburbs, and some sunbelt cities can have extreme diveristy in their core cities (Houston- albeit Houston annexed most of its suburbs...)
Why not? Not only is that supported anecdotally, it's the logical conclusion. I guess it depends on where the Boston resident lives, whether are they natives and what do you define a so much more.
I would say a typical DC resident is more exposed to Black American, Salvadoran, and Ethiopian Cultures
Whereas a typical Bostonian is more exposed to Italian American, Irish American, Brazilian, Portuguese, Chinese, Vietnamese, Greek, Cape Verdean, Dominican, Puerto Rican, and Haitian cultures.
West African cultures in each city are probably a wash, Somali exposure might be a wash too. Both are too small to enter the municipal/political zeitgeist in the same way the aforementioned groups do. There's an edge in Koreans in DC, and an edge in Moserattians and Afro-Hondurans in Boston. Theres too many smaller groups to parse out.
Now you break it out into the metro and Boston and DC operate in very different ways with DC having more gradual gradients of ethnic diversity and more consistency (pretty much all of Moco/ Nova). Boston has deep pockets of diverse satellite cities (think Lowell Cambodians/Liberians/Dominicans/French Canadians, Watertown Armenians, Worcester Eastern Europenas/Ghanians/Ricans) and then large swaths of little to no ethnic diversity. But most of those people don't go into Boston with any frequency, many haven't been back since the pandemic.
I will say DC gets a much more diverse and cosmopolitan array of visitors than Boston does- for obvious reasons.
Most importantly people of a lower socioeconomic status/origin (that's me) are probably exposed to more diversity throughout the Boston metro than their counterparts in the DC metro due to social networks, programming, and so on. People of Higher socioeconomic status in DC are probably exposed to more diversity than their counterparts in the Boston metro due to the racial homogeneity of high-earners in Boston's MSA and the higher social status and more recent arrivals of DC's immigrant base.
This makes sense in the space of city-data forums which skew older and higher income.
I think this analysis makes a lot of assumptions that may not be true for all people. It’s going to be difficult to make objective measurements of something like exposure to different cultures or the relationship between economic class and ethnic diversity. E.g. is a straight off the boat Haitian kid in Mattapan really exposed to Irish American culture or Chinese culture? Is a rich White kid whose parents are gentrifiers growing up in Mount Pleasant really exposed to Salvadoran culture?
My other point is Boston is more diverse than DC no question but it’s not as if DC doesn’t have diversity. It’s no Fargo or Jacksonville FL.
Places in North Jersey and suburban DC impressed me with their cosmopolitanism much more than DC itself where most of the immigrants were of 2 groups, but also they seemed more mainstreamed with less deep and storied ethnic pockets. DC is diverse, I'm strictly talking Cosmopolitan though.
And off of DC, it's just the perfect comparable-sized, population, wealthy city to Boston I am very familiar with. Theres no axe to grind here- its just super convenient. It's just interesting to look at how each metro is put together very differently. It's not just the origin of the immigration its the settlement patterns, and the class status too. I think many cities are probably more like Boston (thinking of Philly, and Chicago) whereas it seems sunbelt cities are more like DC. But some legacy cities like NYC can have extreme diversity in its suburbs, and some sunbelt cities can have extreme diveristy in their core cities (Houston- albeit Houston annexed most of its suburbs...)
What is the percentage threshold for a high foreign born population ? You have places in DC like Brightwood that are about 40-50% foreign born or petworth that is 25% foreign born or Mount Pleasant that’s about 25-30% foreign born. So DC does have many areas of ethnic and racial diversity. Obviously not to scale of places like NYC, LA, Chicago, Boston but I’d consider DC relatively diverse.
EDIT: because you brought up north jersey, I’ll reiterate that it’s hard to measure exposure or cosmopolitanism of an area. NJ is quite segregated by town and it’s entirely possibly that you don’t interact with the ethnic group from the other town or school. So it begs the question, just how cosmopolitan are some of these places?
Second EDIT: aside from size and maybe educational attainment rates, I really don’t think DC and Boston are similar cities at all.
E.g. is a straight off the boat Haitian kid in Mattapan really exposed to Irish American culture or Chinese culture?
My other point is Boston is more diverse than DC no question but it’s not as if DC doesn’t have diversity. It’s no Fargo or Jacksonville FL.
So ironic...
Yes! haha it's so funny you would say that. That's such a common three-way mix in the southern/southeastern edge of Boston. Dorchester is a true melting pot and has one of Americas ten most diverse zip codes
The Lower Mills area of Dorchester/Mattapan and especially the Fields/Corner Adams Village to down to Quincy is literally mostly Irish, Haitian, and Chinese with smaller groups of Vietnamese in Fields Corner. There is a ton of exposure to all three. Go to South Shore Plaza in Braintree or Josiah Quincy Upper School or Boston College High School in Dorchester or the Catholic Memorial in West Roxbury(tons of Nigerians, Irish and Chinese. In particular, Quincy go to Quincy high it's a black American principle presiding over a predominately Irish and Chinese student body with a 10% Haitian Minority.
Matter of fact Comfort Kitchen in Dorchester just opened at its owners are Ghanaian and Nepalaese.
I recently went to Park 54 which is owned by a Trinidadian woman and her Black American Husband. Two of the bartenders appeared to be Southeast Asians. Hyde Park is known for a large Haitian and Nigerian population with smaller levels of Ugandans, Kenyans, Jamaicans, Dominicans and Bajans.
Directly up the street from Park 54 is:
Wingz n Tingz (Jamaican), Rincon Caribeno (Domincian) Antonio Baccaros (Italian) Master McGraths (Irish) and Zaz (Grenadan/Asian Fusion). And that's all within a 4-minute walk, 12 miles from Downtown Boston. Closer to my childhood home down River Street there is Chinese food And Las vegas Seafood (which is actually a Haitian-owned spot with an interesting story).
I lived in a house in Dorchester with 14 roommates in Boston when I served as a Teaching Fellow at a school in Dorchester under Americorps.
Unlike New York City, it's much harder to get places that are all black or all Hispanic or all Asian. The numbers and space are not there. And unlike DC the Asians (including the Chinese) in Boston (the city) are no better off economically than blacks or Hispanics, not at all.
Vietnamese
US Virgin Islander
Haitian
Domincan (she married the Haitian)
Dominican
Jamaican-White
Haitian-Jamaican
Black American
Myself (Black American)
Irish American
WASP
WASP
Afro-Puerto Rican
Russian-Colombian
Afro-Cuban
All of us are from Metro Boston. Heres Zachary Heriveaux a Haitian-Japanese soccer player from Boston (the city) who went to a rival school of mine when I was in High School.
I never even implied it was like Jacksonville btw. I said DC was diverse. That's undeniable- just talking about cosmopolitan and foreign-born/ethnic diversity.
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