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Detroit and it’s not even close. At its peak it was the 5th largest city in the nation.
Though I also voted for Detroit, lets not forget Cleveland was also the 5th largest city at one point in the not too distant past (1920 US Census).
Given that, during this period in American history, much more weight was given to the city than the metro area, I don't think the gap between Detroit and Cleveland would have been that much at that time.
That is to say, I think if you walked up to a guy in 1950 and asked "Detroit or Cleveland" his answer probably wouldn't have been "Lol Detroit, not even close!"
Detroit, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, St. Louis....they were all pretty high up there.
Some other facts to keep in mind that don't help the "Detroit and its not even close" narrative-
Cleveland was dominating pro sports right around this time
The foundations for Cleveland's mass rapid transit (that Detroit would never achieve) were being laid right around this time
During this period, Cleveland had the tallest skyscraper in North America outside of NYC
Though I also voted for Detroit, lets not forget Cleveland was also the 5th largest city at one point in the not too distant past (1920 US Census).
Given that, during this period in American history, much more weight was given to the city than the metro area, I don't think the gap between Detroit and Cleveland would have been that much at that time.
Let me rephrase myself
Yes Cleveland was 5th in 1920 but that was neither cities “peak”. At their respective peaks (1950) Detroit had clout/pull that only LA & NYC could compete with and. It was a bonofied tier 1 city and was literally 2x the size of Cleveland.
Cleveland never reached the size where it had economic pull on a truly national scale
Quote:
Originally Posted by Losfrisco
That is to say, I think if you walked up to a guy in 1950 and asked "Detroit or Cleveland" his answer probably wouldn't have been "Lol Detroit, not even close!"
Detroit, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, St. Louis....they were all pretty high up there.
They were all high up there. The difference is Detroit size coupled with its niche industries (music/automotive) gave it way more influence than all those cities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Losfrisco
Some other facts to keep in mind that don't help the "Detroit and its not even close" narrative-
Cleveland was dominating pro sports right around this time
The foundations for Cleveland's mass rapid transit (that Detroit would never achieve) were being laid right around this time
I mean dominating sports is cool but mass transit wasn’t unique to Cleveland. Detroit invented & monopolized an industry that fundamentally changed the way the human species moved around forever. It’s one of the single most significant societal shifts in history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Losfrisco
During this period, Cleveland had the tallest skyscraper in North America outside of NYC[/b]
Yes Cleveland is an architectural gem, but that’s such a small part of either cities footnote on American history during their peak years I don’t even factor it.
Though I also voted for Detroit, lets not forget Cleveland was also the 5th largest city at one point in the not too distant past (1920 US Census).
Given that, during this period in American history, much more weight was given to the city than the metro area, I don't think the gap between Detroit and Cleveland would have been that much at that time.
That is to say, I think if you walked up to a guy in 1950 and asked "Detroit or Cleveland" his answer probably wouldn't have been "Lol Detroit, not even close!"
Detroit, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, St. Louis....they were all pretty high up there.
Some other facts to keep in mind that don't help the "Detroit and its not even close" narrative-
Cleveland was dominating pro sports right around this time
The foundations for Cleveland's mass rapid transit (that Detroit would never achieve) were being laid right around this time
During this period, Cleveland had the tallest skyscraper in North America outside of NYC
My point exactly!
The poster just mentioning Austin, Charlotte, or even Seattle as current parallels, now, to what Cleveland was at its peak misses the point. None of those cities have the national industrial power, wealth, or prestige, now, that Cleveland had at its peak -- from around the 1920s to 1950s... Detroit did and was one of the few American cities I can agree exceeded Cleveland. Cleveland then had the nickname the "Best Location in the Nation" primarily because of its access to the financial and industrial ports and capitals at the time -- between NYC and Chicago; that Cleveland was within 500 miles via railroads or a day's drive of these places.
The poster just mentioning Austin, Charlotte, or even Seattle as current parallels, now, to what Cleveland was at its peak misses the point. None of those cities have the national industrial power, wealth, or prestige, now, that Cleveland had at its peak -- from around the 1920s to 1950s... Detroit did and was one of the few American cities I can agree exceeded Cleveland. Cleveland then had the nickname the "Best Location in the Nation" primarily because of its access to the financial and industrial ports and capitals at the time -- between NYC and Chicago; that Cleveland was within 500 miles via railroads or a day's drive of these places.
Seattle has 2 of the 5 largest companies on the planet.
Cleveland was behind New York, Chicago, Philly, Detroit, San Francisco, Boston, and in the grouping of LA, Pittsburgh, St Louis and Baltimore.
Maybe Cleveland peaked at like 7-11 while Seattle is like 9-13 but it’s not an outlandish comparison.
I’m fact I really don’t get Seattle and Charlotte being lumped together in 2022
Cleveland never reached the size where it had economic pull on a truly national scale
This is both misleading and false, simultaneously. In terms of size, what metrics are you using for 1920s to 1950s -- when Cleveland was at/near its peak (since that what this thread is about)? Also, define "economic pull." Is this just a term you made up? Start with Standard Oil which was founded and headquartered in Cleveland until the Sherman Anti-trust Act of 1890 began dismantling Standard Oil's monopoly, although Standard of Ohio (SOHIO) remained HQ'd in Cleveland until the mid-1980s when it was merged out of town. Cleveland absolutely was a corporate and industrial powerhouse on a national scale.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joakim3
Yes Cleveland is an architectural gem, but that’s such a small part of either cities footnote on American history during their peak years I don’t even factor it.
This is an inconvenient truth to you, right? Whether you factor in such an element is irrelevant, it's what the nation recognized. The fact that Cleveland had the nation's tallest skyscraper outside NYC from 1930 to 1964-66 (when Boston built the Pru), or has the largest theater district outside NYC, or 5th largest muni libarary system, or one of the top art museums in the nation (and also one of the only free ones, thanks to strong individual and corporate support), 2nd oldest indoor shopping mall (the Arcade, 1890), the first electric street lamp (1888), or was the only US city outside Washington, DC to arrange its municipal buildings orderly along a mall, or, today has the top 1-2 orchestras in America and one of the top medical systems in the world (with branches in FLA, Cali, and London, among others) -- Cleveland Clinic -- didn't just emerge by accident out of the ether. And this list is not exhaustive.
Only a powerhouse city accomplishes all these things. ... again, an inconvenient truth.
Historical metropolitan area population sizes have Detroit peaking at and staying at higher population counts for longer periods of time with significant periods of time where Detroit's metropolitan population, trying to go by urban area instead of the much odder and irregular metropolitan statistical areas, is roughly double that of Cleveland's from 1930 on. Detroit enters the top twenty in 1840 before Cleveland does while Cleveland enters the top ten in 1900 two decades before Detroit enters at a higher position than Cleveland. In terms of rankings, Cleveland peaks at the number 7 position in 1920 (*not* its total population peak) while Detroit does so at the number 4 position in 1930 and stays in the top 5 from 1920 through to 1980 with a strong gap between its position and the one below for several of those decades. I think it's pretty clear that Detroit had a more prominent position at its peak than Cleveland did at its peak and did so for longer, but clearly Cleveland has also been a very prominent city in US history and the larger conurbation of Northeast Ohio, though not quite a metropolitan area or at least a stretch to consider it one in my opinion, as a region was also very prominent.
This is both misleading and false, simultaneously. In terms of size, what metrics are you using for 1920s to 1950s -- when Cleveland was at/near its peak (since that what this thread is about)? Also, define "economic pull." Is this just a term you made up? Start with Standard Oil which was founded and headquartered in Cleveland until the Sherman Anti-trust Act of 1890 began dismantling Standard Oil's monopoly, although Standard of Ohio (SOHIO) remained HQ'd in Cleveland until the mid-1980s when it was merged out of town. Cleveland absolutely was a corporate and industrial powerhouse on a national scale.
Both Detroit & Cleveland’s population peaked in 1950. Detroit peaked at ~1.85 million and Cleveland at ~900k (city proper). The concept of MSA didn’t even exist until 1949.
Economic pull/influence/stature/GDP call it what you want. HQ’ing the largest company in a industry (Standard Oil) is very different than inventing an entire new industry that fundamentally changes how society functions. Cleveland was a power house, in the same manner Seattle, Boston or Atlanta are today, it was just less so than Detroit especially at their relative historical peaks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
This is an inconvenient truth to you, right? Whether you factor in such an element is irrelevant, it's what the nation recognized. The fact that Cleveland had the nation's tallest skyscraper outside NYC from 1930 to 1964-66 (when Boston built the Pru), or has the largest theater district outside NYC, or 5th largest muni libarary system, or one of the top art museums in the nation (and also one of the only free ones, thanks to strong individual and corporate support), 2nd oldest indoor shopping mall (the Arcade, 1890), the first electric street lamp (1888), or was the only US city outside Washington, DC to arrange its municipal buildings orderly along a mall, or, today has the top 1-2 orchestras in America and one of the top medical systems in the world (with branches in FLA, Cali, and London, among others) -- Cleveland Clinic -- didn't just emerge by accident out of the ether. And this list is not exhaustive.
Only a powerhouse city accomplishes all these things. ... again, an inconvenient truth.
Inconvenient truth? Once again, no one said a Cleveland wasn’t a powerhouse city. It was, it just wasn’t to the same degree as Detroit was at its peak. The poll wouldn’t be this lopsided if there was a realistic objective argument.
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