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I’m wondering if the LA influence is due to many people moving from LA to Vegas as well. I say that because LA seems to be the reverse of NYC in regards to the further away, the less influence.
I also think of say Basketball when I think of NYC and what I see happening is that there is a rebirth of sorts in that scene for the city(and even state). I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if you start seeing more pro players coming out of NYC/NYS in the coming years from what I can tell. So, I think for NYC, there may be something in the back of some people’s minds that it can bounce back in various sectors, including Hip Hop, relatively quickly.
Well true, LA's influence is as much about its gravitational pull as NY's is, about its gravitational pull. New York has no pull out here...
There's a long, long overdue thread fir why this board perceives LA/NY differently than they are perceived in reality. The general American views them at similar stature, and truly, NY's "lead" over LA in virtually anything is a symbol of NY's age abd generational roots as an iconic city, than anything modern. The fact that LA has caught up to NY in most lifestyle measures that matter to the average person, and has done so in short time, lapping cities like Chicago and Philadelphia that were competitive with NY much earlier, is an underrated characteristic of Los Angeles that doesn't get enough burn...
For the record, for the same reasons NY has seen a relative "fading in relevance", so has LA, if you view it via my pie analogy. But NY is City Data's perfect, no flaw, no competition city, so NY should be the start of that conversation. It's why I pointed out 4 pages in nobody mentioned NY...
Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4
The fact New York successfully exports its culture and people want to imitate it is a sign of its power. Even recently you see cities naming neighborhoods in the Manhattan way, NoDo/SoDo is common. NIMBYs everywhere decry Manhattanization
It’s not like House or Gogo Music became mainstream like Punk or Hip Hop. LA has never created a genre like New York did.
Also in 2016 both Presidential candidates were from New York. Trumps whole gaggle were New York Elites.
Also at least in my lifetime NY and LA have always been 1A and 1B. I think I’m the last ~30 years LA has really slowed its ascent. I do think New York’s domestic decline has been masked by the simultaneous growth in America’s international profile. So I think it’s treading water than declining. Although on a longer time horizon (say if you’re 50 rather than 25) NYC probably has declined
Also where there is almost a dozen cities in absolute decline, a minor relative decline would be overlooked. Compared to sag Pittsburgh, Cleveland or Detroit.
Also of note, the NYT is become so much bigger than it was in say 1994. As local news declined random crap that happens in New York is now a national discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4
I disagree with the motive though. I think the main reason NYC isn’t really mentioned is because it hasn’t dropped down the charts at all. And still it’s not partially close to dropping down the chart.
Compared to say Detroit which has been surpassed by maybe 6 cities (Miami, Atlanta, Boston, Philly, Dallas, DC, Seattle, SF) since say 1988 (35 years ago)
Or even Chicago which is pretty obviously on the DC/SF/Toronto tier rather than NY/LA.
There is simply not a lot to pin NYC’s relevance against. Other than itself in the past. While most cities have some peer group to measure against
New York's only peer is Los Angeles. Los Angeles has eaten into its relevance in a way that wasn't there in generations past. Up until the 90s you could still make the argument Chicago was more prominent than Los Angeles, but you could never make the argument Chicago had the prominence Los Angeles has in comparison with New York...
Los Angeles has the same gravitational pull New York has, on the opposite side of the country. And I'm long convinced that the East Coast posters here, many of whom have never spent more than a wakeup and a cup of coffee out West, underestimate this...
Where I do agree with you is that NY hasn't dropped down the charts, and it's relative "fade in relevance" is as much a comparison to its own historic stature than anything else. I don't know that the NY Times is more important today than in generations past, but the LA Times is...
And you're making my case for me when you say, NY exporting its culture is a sign of its power. Think about this, LA didn't "create" a genre and yet STILL its style of the various rock themes and Pop and hip hop are imitated and sought by people from everywhere. That's power and influence...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heel82
Coming at this from a non-hip hop pov, NYC feels similar to it always has. Probably has a better reputation than it did in the 80s honestly. The Disneyfication of the 90s really set the tone for it, but even here on the (South) East Coast, it remained a place to visit not necessarily move to. Beyond its media and cultural impact, I think its actual physical pull has been mostly limited to the BoWash area for a couple generations for average Americans.
It’s interesting to hear people say Atlanta is fading when it seems the city is more relevant than ever, especially considering what happened around the latest elections.
It’s interesting to hear people say Atlanta is fading when it seems the city is more relevant than ever, especially considering what happened around the latest elections.
I agree. I would strongly disagree that Atlanta is "fading."
I think Atlanta is more relevant today, than it has ever been.
Arguably, it is one of those cities that has a huge amount of relevance now, in terms of national cultural impact.
*So many movies/tv/music are all based in, and coming out of, Atlanta
*Huge economy with powerhouse companies like Delta, Home Depot, Coca-Cola, Chik-Fil-A, and many more
*Jobs galore, with startup, agency, fortune 500, mid-sized company and now a gigantic tech/IT jobs influx with Georgia Tech as the focal point
*One of biggest and busiest airports in the world
*Still a huge draw for relocation and population boom and growth--been going strong since the 80s
*The powerhouse city of the southeast. Miami is a close 2nd, but Atlanta has become the #1 big city in the southeast (jobs, higher salaries, less costly, bigger draw for companies, etc)
*Politicially nationally influential, as the region has moved from "conservative "red," to "more progressive leaning" and "purple"
I'd say Atlanta is in the top 5 most relevant and influential areas in the US, in 2023.
I was also born in the 80’s, and this is a spot-on analysis. The only thing I would add is Charlotte has definitely risen its stock in my lifetime. My grandparents moved there when I was young, and when I was young it had virtually no skyline and no pro teams. It ended up getting the Hornets (NBA) and Panthers (NFL), and every year since the 80’s has added buildings to its skyline, which is impressive today. Since I visited the city most summers, it was kind of surreal to witness its growth in real-time.
Also, growing up outside of DC, I remember it was a mostly “roughy town” plus the monuments when I was growing up as a child. Outside of the touristy areas, you didn’t venture out far. It held the “murder capital” tag in the 90’s. Right around the early 2000’s when the tech boom hit the DC area it took off, and tangibly rose a couple tiers in terms of its profile as a city. It’s completely different than it was when I was growing up.
More recently, San Francisco comes to mind in its rise because when I was young it seemed like more of a mid-sized city. Now, even with its political controversy, it’s still a power city and the tech capital of the US. Finally, Nashville has also risen in its profile most recently. It’s kind of an Austin 2.0 but for different reasons. Despite being a niche city, Vegas also seems to be on a strong recent rise too.
Agree with your list of declining cities. New Orleans is a sad case. As you mentioned, it has never truly recovered from Katrina. Prior to that it was a complete, major Southern city. Now it’s mostly a tourist destination.
I forgot about Charlotte, I agree that it was also a big riser. Nashville has risen a lot over the last decade but was quiet in the first half of my life (kind of an anti-Portland in that sense).
I grew up going to SF frequently and it always stood out to me how urban it was. Obviously it's been a cultural center since the 60s at least. But, it was a small place geographically at the end of the day. I feel like (in my lifetime, not counting the 60s and such) it peaked as a cool place to be in the late 2000s and early 2010s when it became the place for millennial tech workers. the last 10 years or so it has dropped back as some of the problems SF has always had reached complete absurdity.
What seems like a bigger change to me than SF proper is the Bay Area as a whole. It's just developed so much that it's really a single entity now, and as a single entity I have a hard time ranking it lower than #3 of the most important cities in the US.
I agree. I would strongly disagree that Atlanta is "fading."
I think Atlanta is more relevant today, than it has ever been.
Arguably, it is one of those cities that has a huge amount of relevance now, in terms of national cultural impact.
*So many movies/tv/music are all based in, and coming out of, Atlanta
*Huge economy with powerhouse companies like Delta, Home Depot, Coca-Cola, Chik-Fil-A, and many more
*Jobs galore, with startup, agency, fortune 500, mid-sized company and now a gigantic tech/IT jobs influx with Georgia Tech as the focal point
*One of biggest and busiest airports in the world
*Still a huge draw for relocation and population boom and growth--been going strong since the 80s
*The powerhouse city of the southeast. Miami is a close 2nd, but Atlanta has become the #1 big city in the southeast (jobs, higher salaries, less costly, bigger draw for companies, etc)
*Politicially nationally influential, as the region has moved from "conservative "red," to "more progressive leaning" and "purple"
I agree with all of this
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjbradleynyc
I'd say Atlanta is in the top 5 most relevant and influential areas in the US, in 2023.
Heavily disagree with this. Atlanta is very relevant and important but it is not more relevant and important than New York, LA, Chicago, DC, SF, Boston, Houston.
Heavily disagree with this. Atlanta is very relevant and important but it is not more relevant and important than New York, LA, Chicago, DC, SF, Boston, Houston.
Yeah that was a little funny.
The top 5 ( NY, LA, Chicago, DC, SF) right now is pretty much universally agreed upon.
After that it is widely accepted that Boston and Houston are on the next rung.
If anything I think Atlanta is losing relevance.
To me it isn't as big of a shining star as it was in the 90s and 2000s. You hear a lot about up and comers ( Nashville, Charlotte, Raleigh- Durham).
I am getting more and more confident that DFW trounced Atlanta. Both are regional hubs DFW IA now more so. By a good bit. The GDP is much larger, and DFW is now 1.7M people larger than Atlanta. That is a lot more than the distance between Chicago and DFW.
Both Houston and DFW are forming a tier that is one above the ATL, Miami, Philadelphia group
The top 5 ( NY, LA, Chicago, DC, SF) right now is pretty much universally agreed upon.
After that it is widely accepted that Boston and Houston are on the next rung.
If anything I think Atlanta is losing relevance.
To me it isn't as big of a shining star as it was in the 90s and 2000s. You hear a lot about up and comers ( Nashville, Charlotte, Raleigh- Durham).
I am getting more and more confident that DFW trounced Atlanta. Both are regional hubs DFW IA now more so. By a good bit. The GDP is much larger, and DFW is now 1.7M people larger than Atlanta. That is a lot more than the distance between Chicago and DFW.
Both Houston and DFW are forming a tier that is one above the ATL, Miami, Philadelphia group
True, economically DFW is far ahead of Atlanta but I think Atlanta has the cultural relevance factor to keep it close with DFW. I think DFW and Atlanta are tied at 8 behind the first 7 mentioned above. I do agree that DFW is separating from Atlanta though and should take the 8 spot for itself soon. Both are booming but DFW is booming just a bit more. I also don’t think Atlanta is losing relevance either. The emergence of new cities in the southeast isn’t really slowing down Atlanta. Kind of like how the rise of Austin has not really diminished Houston/DFW.
It’s interesting to hear people say Atlanta is fading when it seems the city is more relevant than ever, especially considering what happened around the latest elections.
I don't think it has faded, it's more that it was fairly big when I was a kid, and I'm not in circles where it's especially talked about today. So I have it more neutral than a big riser or a big faller. I remember the Olympics in 96 and the Braves being good year in-year out. I remember the hip hop scene in the early 2000s, etc.
True, economically DFW is far ahead of Atlanta but I think Atlanta has the cultural relevance factor to keep it close with DFW. I think DFW and Atlanta are tied at 8 behind the first 7 mentioned above. I do agree that DFW is separating from Atlanta though and should take the 8 spot for itself soon. Both are booming but DFW is booming just a bit more. I also don’t think Atlanta is losing relevance either. The emergence of new cities in the southeast isn’t really slowing down Atlanta. Kind of like how the rise of Austin has not really diminished Houston/DFW.
While Austin has rose in prominence, so has DFW.
Meanwhile, ATL hasn't really gained any ground while Nashville, Charlotte etc has. It's not really the same thing.
In the 2000s I would say Atlanta was above Houston and DFW, now it is not. Meaning it has lost prominence. I would have put Philadelphia ahead of Houston and DFW in the early 2000s too. Not anymore.
Atlanta's lost prominence in my opinion is in relation to others.
Heavily disagree with this. Atlanta is very relevant and important but it is not more relevant and important than New York, LA, Chicago, DC, SF, Boston, Houston.
Atlanta -- if not top 5, is very close, more I think of it. You are right, not top 5, but very close.
I'd probably rank it like this, for relevance and importance, and impact, across economic, cultural and political factors--
1) New York
2) Los Angeles
3) San Francisco region
4) Chicago
5) DC
6) Houston
7) Atlanta
8) Boston
9) Dallas
10) Seattle
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