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I believe you are referring to the Upper South...and Texas and Oklahoma while being Southern are also Southwestern and Great Plains.
No, I'm not talking about the "Upper South," necessarily. That word doesn't have meaning to me. I'm breaking it down into "The Deep South" and "Not the Deep South". North Carolina and Tennessee are southern, but not part of the "Deep South", IMO.
That was the point of ranking them, wasn't it? To give opinions on which states have the most southern characteristics? I consider the deep south to be the core of that.
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Originally Posted by ajf131
lol yea...I was wondering the same thing. Tennessee and North Carolina are unquestionably Southern states.
I agree, they are unquestionably southern states.
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Originally Posted by ajf131
The Deep South is not the true South
I disagree. I think that's why it is called the Deep South.
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Originally Posted by Spade
Interesting. How exactly are these states peripheral?
Because they don't fit what I consider to be the deep south, so I consider them peripherally southern, which would be "on the boundary".
Last edited by anonymous; 08-23-2007 at 09:49 AM..
Mabey Southern Virginia is southern, But NOVA and maryland Are not southern! The only thing southern in MD is a few people with southern accents (hardly any), but that doesn't make a place southern because of an accent. MId atlantic is where it belongs.
No, I'm not talking about the "Upper South," necessarily. That word doesn't have meaning to me. I'm breaking it down into "The Deep South" and "Not the Deep South". North Carolina and Tennessee are southern, but not part of the "Deep South", IMO.
That was the point of ranking them, wasn't it? To give opinions on which states have the most southern characteristics? I consider the deep south to be the core of that.
I agree, they are unquestionably southern states.
I disagree. I think that's why it is called the Deep South.
Because they don't fit what I consider to be the deep south, so I consider them peripherally southern, which would be "on the boundary".
Hold on...I mistyped that...lol...did I really say the Deep South wasn't the true South? lol....I stand corrected VERY much so....the Deep South IS unquesetionably the South...lol I have no idea what got into my fingers
Mabey Southern Virginia is southern, But NOVA and maryland Are not southern! The only thing southern in MD is a few people with southern accents (hardly any), but that doesn't make a place southern because of an accent. MId atlantic is where it belongs.
I agree with that actually. Maryland and Delaware are definitely mid-atlantic, along with Northern Virginia around the D.C. area. OTher than that, I think Virginia should be grouped in with the South...after all, it did secede from the Union, its agriculture and dialect are Southern...Virginia I think needs to be classified as Southern. In fact, I would even go so far as to classify West Virginia as mid-atlantic, even though it doesn't touch the Atlantic. I don't think it is really classifiable as Northern or Southern exclusively. I still can't believe that I said the Deep South wasn't the true South...lol...I meant to say either that the Deep South is the true South or that the Upper South is the true south. Here is my definition of the true Southern states again: The Upper South is Virginia, North Carolina, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Arkansas. The Deep South is South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Mississippi, Alabama, and Louisiana. Texas and Oklahoma and West Virginia, while they may have major Southern components to them, are really not classifiable to me as true Southern states given that Texas and Oklahoma are part of the Great Plains and have major Southwestern components to them. West Virginia is both Northern and Southern at the same time. West Virginia north of U.S. 50 is definitely not Southern. Charleston I think is neither Northern or Southern but both. West Virginia, Oklahoma, and Texas I think are today's border states.
One of the things that needs to be taken into consideration is that there are different sorts of "regions," and the type IMO we are talking about are the cultural/historical. I mention that because I have noticed Texas being grouped in with the Great Plains in a few instances.
True, there are parts of Texas (mostly the northern and parts of central and western) which are a part of the plains in terms of *topography", and wheat is a big crop (cotton is *much* bigger though!), but that is where any similarity with the other so-called "Great Plains" states ends (with the partial exception of Oklahoma). BUT.. these aspects define a region in mostly physical terms, and by such classification, northern Alabama and Georgia might be said to fit in with parts of Pennyslvania and New York because they share the Appalachians. LOL
The point is, as a *cultural/historical* region, the Great Plains would end in the south somewhere around Oklahoma City, and Texas would not be a part of it. Kansas, Nebraska, and the Dakotas are part of a sub-region of the Greater Midwest that might be called the "Plains."
Texas, on the other hand, has almost nothing in common with those states in terms of settlement patterns (Texas was settled by westward moving settlers from the older Southern states, while the above were populated by northerners), history (the Confederacy is a prime example), dialect (Texas speech is classified as one of many sub-varieties of Southern American English), folkways, customs, politics and voting patterns (Texas was long a part of the Solid South when it was democratic, and stayed that way when it shifted republican), to name a few.
Gotta scoot, and more on Texas later (the southwestern thing! LOL), but wanted to address the Great Plains issue for now.
On a final tangent though, I don't think many who have ever visited the state or know its history who would not consider Texas much more Southern than Oklahoma (I noticed it in a few rankings, unless there was a mix-up or something). Oklahoma did not even become a state until 1907 (Indian Territory prior to that time) and although the southern and eastern parts have some decidedly Southern characteristics and parts of its early statehood history mirrored some aspects of the established South (the Old Confederate states plus Kentucky), largely due to settlement from Texans and upper Southerners (noteable Arkansas), it was the native-american culture which primarily shaped it, not the older Southern traditions or its history. BTW, this is not intended at all to denigrate Oklahoma! I live close to the northern border and like the state and its people, and admire many aspects of its history.
Because they don't fit what I consider to be the deep south, so I consider them peripherally southern, which would be "on the boundary".
But we are not talking about which states are in the deep south or not. We are talking about which states are southern in which both you named are actually in the south. Nothing peripheral about those two states as far as regarding which region they actually are in. And try telling people in Memphis and Nashville they aren't in the south.
Mabey Southern Virginia is southern, But NOVA and maryland Are not southern! The only thing southern in MD is a few people with southern accents (hardly any), but that doesn't make a place southern because of an accent. MId atlantic is where it belongs.
Northern Virginina used to be southern. Now its very transient.
But people who say northern virginia was never Southern obviously don't know their history or are not familiar with the area.
Very interesting topic, ranking states according to how one perceives them as "Southern." Here is my own (for the two cents it might be worth! LOL), list. I might mention that, like a previous poster, I am expanding the originally suggested list of states, out to those defined as "South" by the U.S. Census Bureau, as well as Missouri (which in an historical context, has at least SOME claim to being Southern
From least to most, along with my own personal thoughts and opinions:
17. Delaware - (nothing Southern about it other than Census definition)
16. Maryland - (a few Southern aspects, but Census definition is main reason)
15. Missouri - (southern parts of Missouri have some characterisitcs of the mountain South, but for the most part it is a midwestern state)
14. West Virginia - (Mountain South that blends with the northern appalachian region of Pennsylvania. Refusal to join the Confederacy pretty much forever limits its status as a Southern state).
13. Oklahoma - (some very decent Southern characteristics south of Oklahoma City and east of Tulsa due to influence of Texas and Arkansas settlers), but it gets more "midwestern" north of west of the above lines).
The above are the states I would consider, to one degree or another, the least Southern of all. Next group:
12: Florida (Historically unquestionably Southern, and north of Orlando, still very much so. However, the decades long outside migration has considerably diluted a good part of the state's earlier character. Very sad).
11. Kentucky - (Had Kentucky truly joined the Confederacy, its status as a Southern state today would probably not be the subject of much debate. On the other hand, mint julips and fried chicken are a state icon, and it is said it indeed DID "join the Confederacy after the War", as evidenced by the fact that it observes a Confederate holiday and statues in memory of the CSA are numerous.)
10. Virginia - (It is hard to think of the birthplace of Confederate heroes such as Robert E. Lee, and Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson (to just name the permier), and that the capital of the Confederacy was in Richmond, as being anything BUT Southern. Yet, sadly, northern migration into the northern part of the state has had an impact.)
9. Texas - (THIS is a story in itself and, as a native Texan, I will address in more detail in another post! LOL For the moment though, I will just say that Texas is essentially a Southern state. And as ajf131 said, its support for the Confederacy was original and unquestionable. East Texas is where the Deep South begins, and even West Texas was settled by migrating Southernerns. The cultural impact was and remains, very Southern. Still, many things, not of the least of which are demographic trends in terms of migration (legal or otherwise) have diluted Texas, overall, as being considered a totally Southern state. Again though, more on that in another, later, post.
The states above (the "second team" so to speak! LOL) are USUALLY considered Southern, and the "order" can be re-arranged depending on perspective). Now, for the "starting" lineup! *grins*
8. Arkansas - ( An Upper South state that didn't secede until after Ft. Sumter, but unquestionably Southern, even if a combination of Deep and Mountain South, in character)
7. North Carolina (Upper South that didn't secede until after Ft. Sumter, yet had an absolute history of devotion to the Confederacy when it did. Some parts more Southern than others, but pork BBQ for sure secures its status)
6. Tennessee (Again on joining the Confederacy, but anyone who has ever vistited there, especially in Memphis and certain other parts, don't question it being Southern).
5. Louisiana (the northern part of the state is Deep South. The reason I rank it #5 is that there is a heavy Catholic and French Cajun influence in the southern part which, while Southern in its way, is not typical of the true Deep South).
4. South Carolina - (The first state to secede, and with the most support within. The ONLY reason it might be ranked as not the "most Southern" is the colonial influence and its own certain brand of independence. At the same time, with South Carolina and the states to follow, are those which most, admirably IMHO, proudly and without qualm, proclaim their "Southerness")
3. Georgia - (Gone With the Wind. The Empire State of The South, epitome of the "southern accent". ONLY problem is Atlanta nowdays!)
2. Alabama - (Azaleas, plantations, DEEP Deep South thru and thru. Literally, in all ways, the geographical "Heart of Dixie" whether or not one defines "The South" by the Old Confederacy, or the commonly thought of Deep South states (South Carolina thru Louisiana). Only reason it is second is that the northern part is a bit different from the Old South way of life).
1. Mississippi - (I might mention that this is my own ancestral state, but I dont think that fact influences my opinion. Mississippi combines all things commonly considered "Southern" with very few dilutions at all).
Ok, I am finished. Although I gotta elaborate on Texas a bit more, later! LOL
As a life long Virginian- its really weird when I go to some places in Northern Virginia (I grew up there!) and some people ask me where I am from saying I sound slightly "Southern". Most all of them talk like yankees and act like them. There are a few people in Northern Virginia (old timers) who'd you'd swear are from Richmond or further South. But Northern Virginia is the transitional zone I think now between North and South.
But we are not talking about which states are in the deep south or not. We are talking about which states are southern in which both you named are actually in the south.
No, we are not talking about "which states are southern". We are ranking them in order to determine popular opinion about which states are most southern. I believe that the deep south states, by definition, are more southern than states who are not. That is why I made the distinction in the first place, and that's why it is relevant to the discussion.
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Nothing peripheral about those two states as far as regarding which region they actually are in. And try telling people in Memphis and Nashville they aren't in the south.
For the third time, Tennessee is in the south. And yes, with regards to the deep south (which is very relevant to the discussion), TN and NC are peripheral. I live in North Carolina, and there are enough differences to cause me to put NC in a different category than Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Louisiana and South Carolina.
No, we are not talking about "which states are southern". We are ranking them in order to determine popular opinion about which states are most southern. I believe that the deep south states, by definition, are more southern than states who are not. That is why I made the distinction in the first place, and that's why it is relevant to the discussion.
For the third time, Tennessee is in the south. And yes, with regards to the deep south (which is very relevant to the discussion), TN and NC are peripheral. I live in North Carolina, and there are enough differences to cause me to put NC in a different category than Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Louisiana and South Carolina.
Yes, agreed there. It oughta be noted that the South does not consist of just the Deep South, it also consists of the Upper South, which consists of Arkansas, Tennessee, North Carolina, Kentucky, and Virginia.
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