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You lose. Even the outsiders with no connection to either city agree. Sulk back to the KC board and start insulting the KS posters again.
yeah I have absolutely no connection to St. Louis. I've lived in Memphis my whole life and I had never been to St. Louis until last November. I randomly decided to go with a friend on a day trip to St. Louis because it's only 4 hours away and we didn't have class. I fell in love with the city and the surrounding suburbs. I've been back 3 times since then. It's just a really charming place with so much character. There are very few cities that are as unique as St. Louis. I just feel like KC could easily be mistaken for many other cities. I'm sure KC beats Stl in several categories, but Stl will always stand out as the more recognized city.
My 2 cents... I dated a gorgeous coed from the KC area a few years back when I was in college and my gf of 4.5 years graduated with honors from UMKC so I must say there is some beautiful scenery on the western half of the Show Me State.
We should be so thankful that Missouri has two major cities the quality of St. Louis and Kansas City.
STL is ahead by 1. LOL that really seals the deal eh? And in the comments, people who are from neither city chose KC 6 times over STL, only 3 people not from either city chose STL.
STL is picked over KC 6 times.... KC is picked over STL 14 times
These forums are not the end all of things, in fact in the vote for KC vs STL I am shocked KC isn't behind by more, because while I think KC has a better downtown and a lot of great things to do here (though I find both cities pretty much equal in things to do, the differences are mostly aesthetic IMO, and of course the people themselves), it doesn't change the fact that STL is a lot more well known cuz of the arch...
As I have said there are facts however in relation to the downtowns, KC is bigger, does have a higher population, is growing faster, and has more to do then STL downtown.
If you want to go Plaza vs. Clayton, I'd take the Plaza any day of the week, but I don't have any statistics... this is just my personal opinion. Our urban areas are all mostly together from River Market to Downtown, Crossroads, Crown Center, Midtown, Westport, Plaza, etc.... all very close, which I like.
Housing stock, I think STL brick buildings are awesome, very very beautiful. I think KC has a lot of diversity in its urban areas though as well as I posted earlier, with Victorians, Foursquare, and quaint old gingerbread looking tudors....
I prefer KC, but I can admit there are things STL has that I wish we were on the level with, mostly the light rail and science museum... in all honesty I prefer Liberty Memorial over the Arch. The arch is visually nice, but I like Liberty Memorial when they have it lit up and the museum etc...
check out "ghetto" kcmo!, now lest see those pics of vacant buildings west of your financial district all the way to SLU!
These pictures make it look like KC has the worst of high-density development where it's a huge concentration of residential mid and high rises in single-use buildings and neighborhoods that require huge parking lots and structures for the large number of people who have to drive out of these zones to get to anything resembling an active street scene.
But really, I pick St. Louis because this barrage of mostly unnecessary pictures is annoying as hell.
These pictures make it look like KC has the worst of high-density development where it's a huge concentration of residential mid and high rises in single-use buildings and neighborhoods that require huge parking lots and structures for the large number of people who have to drive out of these zones to get to anything resembling an active street scene.
But really, I pick St. Louis because this barrage of mostly unnecessary pictures is annoying as hell.
Maybe try looking at the pictures better? Only 2 of the places had parking lots and they weren't huge... all the other places are off street and underground parking.
If you want to go Plaza vs. Clayton, I'd take the Plaza any day of the week, but I don't have any statistics... this is just my personal opinion. Our urban areas are all mostly together from River Market to Downtown, Crossroads, Crown Center, Midtown, Westport, Plaza, etc.... all very close, which I like.
Can you show me some nice pics of the Plaza?.. because I seriously can't figure out what's so good about it. It looks like a Southwestern or Mediterranean-themed shopping center, which looks totally out of place in MO.
I don't see how it can compete with Clayton, an actual city:
Feel free to post pics or links and prove me wrong, I'm really trying to figure out the Plaza, but from what I can see, it looks like a wannabe Phoenix.
The plaza is more of a neighborhood, it's far more mixed use so it stays pretty active all the time while clayton is more of a business district where much of it is very dead during non-business hours despite the newer condos and retail areas now mixed in.
I find the plaza area (not just the core shopping area, but the entire plaza area) to be extremely walkable and interesting at street level.
The area includes the art institute, umkc campus, the river walk, nelson atkins art museum, popular parks etc. Westport can be easily walked to from the plaza, the architecture of the plaza is really diverse with the modern stuff staying interesting while not taking away from the art deco and spanish 1930's era architecture.
Clayton is mostly a central business district lost in the inner suburbs of St Louis while the Plaza is more of a much larger version of the Central West End in St Louis with more office, hotels and high density housing.
From a strictly business with some nice urban housing mixed in standpoint, Clayton wins, but from a mixed use urban standpoint, the plaza wins.
Oh and there is nothing about the plaza that is even remotely like Phoenix. KC has plenty of areas like phoenix (check out overland park). I really think you need to visit the plaza area. If you are into urban planning at all and can't respect the country club plaza, then you need to find something else to be interested in.
The plaza is more of a neighborhood, it's far more mixed use so it stays pretty active all the time while clayton is more of a business district where much of it is very dead during non-business hours despite the newer condos and retail areas now mixed in.
I find the plaza area (not just the core shopping area, but the entire plaza area) to be extremely walkable and interesting at street level.
The area includes the art institute, umkc campus, the river walk, nelson atkins art museum, popular parks etc. Westport can be easily walked to from the plaza, the architecture of the plaza is really diverse with the modern stuff staying interesting while not taking away from the art deco and spanish 1930's era architecture.
Clayton is mostly a central business district lost in the inner suburbs of St Louis while the Plaza is more of a larger version of the Central West End in St Louis.
ok that's fair. I did think it was a little strange to compare the Plaza & Clayton.
I hate to get sucked back in this thread, but ONLY to accentuate the positive. I just want to say that there is a lot to do downtown STL, here are just a few examples: Keep in mind, there are a ton of other things to do in the city, but this is just downtown.
The Arch-One of the coolest memorials in the country. Below the arch is the Westward Expansion Museum The City Museum-Nothing like it in the midwest, if not the country. Check it out: CITY MUSEUM- Home (http://www.citymuseum.org/home.asp - broken link) World Aquairum- World Aquarium | Structures of Nature | St. Louis, Missouri Lumiere Casino and Four Seasons Resort- If you are into gambling this is a very nice casino. If you don't like to gamble, there are several really great restaurants to choose from City Garden-An urban oasis located downtown, it's been nationally recognized as one of the best urban parks in the country: Saint Louis CitySide - An Overview of the City Government of Saint Louis Union Station-Has a souvenier shops, cardinals gear, a couple restaurants including Hard Rock Cafe Busch Stadium-Check out a Cardinals game Edward Jones Dome-Check out a Rams game Scottrade Center-Check out St Louis Blues game Campbell House Museum-Welcome to the Campbell House Museum St Louis Toy Museum-Welcome to the Field's House Wax Museum of St Louis-http://stlwaxmuseum.com/
If you wonder just a few miles from downtown, there are a lot of other really amazing things to do: Missouri Botantical Garden-Missouri Botanical Garden St Louis Zoo (forest park)- Known for being one of the best in the world Saint Louis Zoo Missouri History Museum (forest park)-http://www.mohistory.org/home/ St Louis Art Museum- (forest park) Saint Louis Art Museum: Home (http://www.slam.org/index.aspx?id=1 - broken link) Contemporary Art Museum- Contemporary Art Museum St. Louis Grand Center- ST Louis Arts District http://www.grandcenter.org/ The Fabulous Fox Theater-One of the best indoor venues in the country to see a show: http://www.fabulousfox.com/ The Muny-The oldest and Largest outdoor amphitheater in the Country, http://www.muny.org/ Powell Symphony Hall- Catch the award winning St Louis symphonyhttp://www.slso.org/ Soulard Farmers Market-Year round farmers market, pretty much anything you can think of: Soulard Market St Louis Science Center w/IMAX-Great place to take the kids: Saint Louis Science Center > Home Anheuser-Busch Brewery- Take a tour of where it all began: Anheuser-Busch Brewery Tour Home Page Schafly Bottleworks Brewery-Take a tour of our favorite microbrew: Tour Schlafly Bottleworks (http://www.schlafly.com/tours.shtml - broken link) The Lemp Mansion-One of the most haunted places in the country, The Lemp Mansion Restaurant and Inn (http://www.lempmansion.com/history.html - broken link) Tower Grove Park-A victorian gem, second only in STL to Forest Park. You can always catch a festival and browse their Saturday Farmers Market: Tower Grove Park
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