Greater Cleveland's population went up from 1960 - 2012! (Riverside, Brooklyn: 2013, apartments)

[Cleverfield]

Originally Posted by Cali1976

Shocked I don't have data at my fingertips to substantiate the deaths claim, or shocked that Cleveland is one of a select group of metropolitan areas that has the same population it had in 1960 while the US population has increased 75%?

He's sarcastically "shocked" that you made a baseless claim, because that has been your consistent MO.

[Cali1976]

I'm still confused how you perceive my claims as baseless. I grew up in Cleveland, recently visited Cleveland, and have close relatives in Cleveland. Im very familiar with the dynamics of the city. I also read data on census.gov

[Cleverfield]

Originally Posted by Cali1976

I'm still confused how you perceive my claims as baseless. I grew up in Cleveland, recently visited Cleveland, and have close relatives in Cleveland. Im very familiar with the dynamics of the city. I also read data on census.gov

1. Statistics, even when you have them (which in the case of your last claim, you don't), don't tell the whole story, especially when they're not neighborhood specific
2. You do not live here now, and haven't for some time I gather, and so do not fully understand Cleveland as it presently stands
3. Talking to friends or relatives about their probably equally baseless perceptions does not give your perceptions any additional support.

In order to make a good argument you need some kind of solid justification for your belief, e.g. a fact that everyone can agree upon, AND you need to not fall victim to confirmation bias, in other words you have to weigh facts that support the other side, not only facts that support what you already believe. You do neither of these things, and so your arguments are nothing more than meaningless emotional rhetoric, that frankly make you sound like a talking head on Fox News. What was the word Stephen Colbert coined? Oh yeah "truthiness".

[Cali1976]

I wasn't refuting the OPs original claim. I provided more context. I offer a realistic assessment of Cleveland's strengths and weaknesses because I'm not emotionally invested. There are good things happening in Cleveland. Some areas are seeing growth, there are beautiful and affordable homes in shaker heights and the like, and if you are a doctor or lawyer, you can live better in Cleveland than probably any other city in the US. This can all be assessed by reading a local paper and doing a google streetview.

However, Cleveland has lots of downsides. The city outside downtown is mostly blighted, there are few job opportunities, the political leadership is horrible and insular, and the metro area is stagnant. The charming and historic Eastern suburbs are mostly in tact, but there are pockets of deterioration creeping eastward which any resident will attest to. For folks who are unfamiliar with the city, they need an honest assessment. Cleveland is more like Detroit than most people in the country think.

[Cleverfield]

Originally Posted by Cali1976

I wasn't refuting the OPs original claim. I provided more context. I offer a realistic assessment of Cleveland's strengths and weaknesses because I'm not emotionally invested. There are good things happening in Cleveland. Some areas are seeing growth, there are beautiful and affordable homes in shaker heights and the like, and if you are a doctor or lawyer, you can live better in Cleveland than probably any other city in the US. This can all be assessed by reading a local paper and doing a google streetview.

However, Cleveland has lots of downsides. The city outside downtown is mostly blighted, there are few job opportunities, the political leadership is horrible and insular, and the metro area is stagnant. The charming and historic Eastern suburbs are mostly in tact, but there are pockets of deterioration creeping eastward which any resident will attest to. For folks who are unfamiliar with the city, they need an honest assessment. Cleveland is more like Detroit than most people in the country think.

You were doing fine, then you lost all credibility with your last statement. Cleveland is like Detroit in the way that an M-80 is like Hiroshima. Sure, both are bad, but one is on an entirely different scale than the other.

[Cleveland_Collector]

Maybe he hasn't been to Detroit. Or maybe he grew up there, went to Greektown and all of the casinos/venues 100s of times, frolicked on Bell Island, moved away 20 yrs ago, just went back there and chose to hang out in Grosse Pointe Shores or Birmingham with family, never set foot in the city of Detroit and now knows everything about it too. And, since he's not emotionally invested, he can provide a realistic assessment of Detroit... except that he clearly knows nothing about it either.

Aside from its transition to a post-industrial economy, Detroit and Cleveland are very, very different. To start with, Detroit filed for Chapter 9 bankruptcy while Cleveland had a $50 million budget surplus. Cleveland is currently seeing billions in investment. Detroit isn't. Anyone who has been to both cities would notice the stark contrast.

[chet_kinkaid]

cleveland has major assets even larger cities dont have..ive lived in phoenix az for example.the symphony is awful..theres really no culture to be honest..cleveland has culture to rival european capitals,but the avg joe doesnt care about the cleveland orchestra or art museum.cleveland has 3 major league sports franchises..the lake..abundant fresh water,the problem is that cleveland also has what my many friends from the newark nj area often tell me..a depression factor..the brownfield /neglected areas give a negative impression that many people want to get away from.it has to be addressed..i loved my time in cleveland..i love the city,but you have to be honest with yourself before you can change things..i would love to move back to cleveland and be part of a rennaisance

[NotAPinhead]

Originally Posted by Cali1976

I wasn't refuting the OPs original claim. I provided more context. I offer a realistic assessment of Cleveland's strengths and weaknesses because I'm not emotionally invested. There are good things happening in Cleveland. Some areas are seeing growth, there are beautiful and affordable homes in shaker heights and the like, and if you are a doctor or lawyer, you can live better in Cleveland than probably any other city in the US. This can all be assessed by reading a local paper and doing a google streetview.

However, Cleveland has lots of downsides. The city outside downtown is mostly blighted, there are few job opportunities, the political leadership is horrible and insular, and the metro area is stagnant. The charming and historic Eastern suburbs are mostly in tact, but there are pockets of deterioration creeping eastward which any resident will attest to. For folks who are unfamiliar with the city, they need an honest assessment. Cleveland is more like Detroit than most people in the country think.

Stop making such obvious observations to anyone who opens their eyes. Cleveland is a city that is one step forward and two steps back. For every restaurant that opens another 1 and more closes. Since the overall region (Cuyahogua) continues to lose people, the area is sinking by definition. The boosters want to believe that there are more high paying jobs being created that will replace the income of all the job losses but this is not the case. Also, there is no evidence that the wage earners are staying in Cuyahoga county. Indeed, all the new construction OUTSIDE of Cuyahoga county which is sold must represent a loss to someone as the overall population of the region is barely growing. Hint: people continue to leave Cleveland/Cuyahoga and settle outside the core in Lake, Stark, Medina, etc. These are all the "stupid" people who live in "boring" suburbs and are "ruining" the urban core as per the vocal minority (based on the evidence of what Cleveland is...they are clearly the MAJORITY when it comes to shouting their views here) on this forum. Yes, blame these people for all the current problems of Cleveland while holding yourself up as some sort of enlightened, hip pioneer getting in on the ground floor of the rebirth of Cleveland. Comical to say the least!

[Tarheel8406]

Here's a quick rundown of numbers pulled from Wikipedia (if anyone has the time to pull the actual Census numbers, they'd probably be more accurate since the numbers on Wikipedia are often a bit off): While the Cleveland metro area gained population from 1960 to 2012, it actually lost population from 1970 to 1990. It reversed the trend during the 1990s, but its been losing population again from 2000 to 2010. The most recent estimates show a continuation of this trend (but estimates are not always accurate). It's current population is probably the same as sometime in the 1990s.

It's not unusual for Rust Belt metros to gain population while their cities empty out. Metro Detroit is a good example, as it grew from the 1950s to 2000. (It's since reversed that trend during the decade from 2000 to 2010.) Rochester has also gained population from the 1970s to 2010.

[TheMahValley]

Originally Posted by Cali1976

I'm still confused how you perceive my claims as baseless. I grew up in Cleveland, recently visited Cleveland, and have close relatives in Cleveland. Im very familiar with the dynamics of the city. I also read data on census.gov

You really don't seem too familiar with Cleveland. Sorry, as an outsider who has been lurking, your posts reek of ignorance. You aren't as bad as some other posters recently, but it's almost like you're arguing for the sake of arguing. In the other thread you ask forumers for their opinions and their thoughts, and almost seemed dumbfounded by the fact that people didn't agree with you or would go against your logic. At first, I could see where you were going because you made observations, but now you just seem like some former "resident" who never gets "home" and makes inane opinions on an entire city and region. You obviously hate it in Cleveland, so forget about it and don't give it the time of day... easy as that.

As for this thread:

It is also worth noting that from October to November the Cleveland MSA actually added jobs. The people who focus on just the negativity must really have a dim outlook on a lot of things. "Booming" places like Charlotte, NC actually saw a drop in their civilian labor force in those months. Cleveland had consistently lower unemployment rates on average than the US throughout the majority of the recession, and somehow still holds on to its "relevance" today. It is not focusing on development in one part of the city like Detroit, and is capitalizing on its diverse economy. Cleveland is world renowned for its healthcare and hospitals. And is a banking and insurance hub. It's old-time institutions never fail to come up with huge gains, and are doing better than ever. Awesome park system, great natural amenities, and a great looking future. Don't just focus on the now, but focus on the investments that are taking hold in Cleveland.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/metro.t01.htm

Instead of just looking for quick numbers to prove your point; maybe some people should look into why numbers are they way they are. If you hate Cleveland so bad, please leave and find the means to do so, you're negativity gets old. And if you have already left, more power to ya.