Greater Cleveland's population went up from 1960 - 2012! (Cincinnati, Mason: house, neighborhoods)

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

People think I'm too harsh or too much of a homer when it comes to that guy MSPsite, but he's basically Columbus' version of the same type of person. An "ex" who can't pat themselves on the back hard enough for moving away, and yet it's so clear they're not entirely happy or they wouldn't spend so much time being so negative about where they came from. Happy people don't do that, which leads me to believe that perhaps the reality in these new homes is not quite matching expectations.

At least Mplsite lived in Columbus for a long time and actually in the city. By all accounts, he did get out and about and does actually know more than one neighborhood, and at least he doesn't hang out at Polaris or Easton and hold those places up as ideal. He's still pretty irrational, but you can't say the same things about Cleveland1976. I have no idea why s/he posts here.

[Cleveland_Collector]

Originally Posted by lvoc

Yes but...16K per capita. Indianapolis 24.1K, Kansas City 26.8K, St Louis 22.5K, Buffalo 20.2K, Chicago 28K.

See the problem?

Yes, we do.

The problem with your simple-minded assessment is that it doesn't nearly tell the entire story. For instance, Indianapolis is the only city of note in Marion County and consumes all but 30 of nearly 400 sq. miles of the county. Cleveland city proper consumes only 72 sq. miles of the 457 sq. miles in Cuyahoga County.

The fair assessment and comparison is county to county:

Marion: 21.7K per capita
Cuyahoga: 26.7K per capita

This isn't to say that the wage disparity between those living in suburbia and those living in less prosperous areas is not bothersome. But, it gets blown totally out of proportion by people who haven't a clue of the area's dynamics.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by Cali1976

You're just as credible as I am, based on your location. I haven't looked up your past posting history, however, to validate my assumption...because I don't care that much

But you care enough to post 30 times about a city you neither like, nor live in, nor want to return to.

Sorry, kiddo, can't have it both ways with the too-cool-for-school nonchalance.

[lvoc]

Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector

Yes, we do.

The problem with your simple-minded assessment is that it doesn't nearly tell the entire story. For instance, Indianapolis is the only city of note in Marion County and consumes all but 30 of nearly 400 sq. miles of the county. Cleveland city proper consumes only 72 sq. miles of the 457 sq. miles in Cuyahoga County.

The fair assessment and comparison is county to county:

Marion: 21.7K per capita
Cuyahoga: 26.7K per capita

This isn't to say that the wage disparity between those living in suburbia and those living in less prosperous areas is not bothersome. But, it gets blown totally out of proportion by people who haven't a clue of the area's dynamics.

You don't seem to realize the similarity to the Detroit situation. It too is surrounded by a vast metro area with much better demographics. But it is still bankrupt.

There are things I do not know...for instance are the State and Suburbs hostile as they clearly are to Detroit?

But I would expect the poverty level and per capita income to be more than sufficient to sink Cleveland unless there is outside support offsetting it. I am skeptical simply because it should never get that bad if there is support external to the city.

I would also note that Cleveland apparently locally funds schools at a level too low to sustain a strong district. Note that Detroit has no such expense as the schools are a state facility.

[Cali1976]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

But you care enough to post 30 times about a city you neither like, nor live in, nor want to return to.

Sorry, kiddo, can't have it both ways with the too-cool-for-school nonchalance.

No, I didn't say I was nonchalant about posting. Clearly I'm invested in that.

[Cleverfield]

Originally Posted by lvoc

You don't seem to realize the similarity to the Detroit situation. It too is surrounded by a vast metro area with much better demographics. But it is still bankrupt.

There are things I do not know...for instance are the State and Suburbs hostile as they clearly are to Detroit?

But I would expect the poverty level and per capita income to be more than sufficient to sink Cleveland unless there is outside support offsetting it. I am skeptical simply because it should never get that bad if there is support external to the city.

I would also note that Cleveland apparently locally funds schools at a level too low to sustain a strong district. Note that Detroit has no such expense as the schools are a state facility.

And you don't seem to realize the differences. Cleveland had a budget surplus this year, and has had a balanced budget or surplus for the past 8 years. The city's finances are very well managed under Jackson, our mayor. And the city recently passed a huge $400 mil school levy, while the state has not increased funding to impoverished districts like Cleveland. The district is home to several high performing magnet schools, and is showing signs of improvement in its general public schools. The state and suburbs are not really hostile towards Cleveland, with the mayor (D) and the governor (R) actually working together on a lot of issues, including large infrastructure projects and education.

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

At least Mplsite lived in Columbus for a long time and actually in the city. By all accounts, he did get out and about and does actually know more than one neighborhood, and at least he doesn't hang out at Polaris or Easton and hold those places up as ideal. He's still pretty irrational, but you can't say the same things about Cleveland1976. I have no idea why s/he posts here.

He lived there yes, but I'm not sure for how long or what his overall experience was. I just meant that he's the same type of person that has to find a negative, no matter how insignificant, and translate that negative into an all-encompassing failure.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

He lived there yes, but I'm not sure for how long or what his overall experience was. I just meant that he's the same type of person that has to find a negative, no matter how insignificant, and translate that negative into an all-encompassing failure.

Yes, definitely the same type. I don't know why they even bother coming here.

[lvoc]

Originally Posted by Cleverfield

And you don't seem to realize the differences. Cleveland had a budget surplus this year, and has had a balanced budget or surplus for the past 8 years. The city's finances are very well managed under Jackson, our mayor. And the city recently passed a huge $400 mil school levy, while the state has not increased funding to impoverished districts like Cleveland. The district is home to several high performing magnet schools, and is showing signs of improvement in its general public schools. The state and suburbs are not really hostile towards Cleveland, with the mayor (D) and the governor (R) actually working together on a lot of issues, including large infrastructure projects and education.

From the Cleveland Plan...

Academics: Despite progress, the quality of education in schools remains unacceptable and the pace of improvement inadequate. In the 2010–11 school year, 55 percent of Cleveland schools (district and charter) were in academic watch or academic emergency. In fact, one-third of Cleveland neighborhoods have only failing schools. On the 2011 Ohio Achievement Assessments, just 43 percent of fifth grade CMSD students tested proficient in reading and 30 percent tested proficient in mathematics. National and international comparisons are worse, which is particularly alarming in terms of Ohio’s impending shift to the new and much more rigorous common core standards. Most telling of all, for every 100 students entering ninth grade in Cleveland, 63 will graduate high school, 34 of those graduates will enroll in college, and just seven will graduate with a bachelor’s degree

 Finances: The CMSD risks insolvency. It faces a $64.9 million budget deficit in 2012–13: more than ten percent of the current fiscal year’s operating budget. The budget deficit in 2013–14 is projected to be an additional $40 million. This situation persists despite cost reductions of over $100 million over the past two years, including 23 school closings, layoffs of hundreds of employees, compensation and benefit reductions and the sale of district buildings. This deteriorating financial position reflects structural issues that have developed over the past 40 years: automatic step/scale increases in salaries, rising health care costs, declining enrollment, diminishing tax collections and the lack of a new operating levy since 1996. Community driven priorities—preschool, transportation, arts, music and sports—are at risk, as are new school start-ups and support. For the district’s charter partners, lack of access to full public funding results in high-performing charter schools supplementing general operations with philanthropic support, an unsustainable position in the long run.

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I am sure the new levy will help but then again it may not. The Detroit experience is that half the population stopped paying their property tax. What would that do to Cleveland?

Again I certainly hope Cleveland pulls it off. But it appears to be the closest to Detroit of the American Cities.

[Cali1976]

It IS the closest major city to Detroit along a variety of dimensions. St. Louis is the only other city that I can think of that can compare.