RTA: What's good, bad, and improvable (Cleveland, Euclid: 2013, transferring to, movie theater)

[TBideon]

I mean that in the early 1980s Cleveland had a downtown workforce population in the mid 300,000s and today it's a bit under 100,000. White collar business has been decimated; just look at the E9/Euclid financial district today versus prior generations. These aren't nominal changes, resulting in dramatically fewer people needing to go downtown by car or public transportation.

And I agree the state doesn't seem to give a s-hit about RTA either. Their funding is abysmal, political.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by TBideon

I mean that in the early 1980s Cleveland had a downtown workforce population in the mid 300,000s and today it's a bit under 100,000. White collar business has been decimated; just look at the E9/Euclid financial district today versus prior generations. These aren't nominal changes, resulting in dramatically fewer people needing to go downtown by car or public transportation.

And I agree the state doesn't seem to give a s-hit about RTA either. Their funding is abysmal, political.

You are correct. In the early 80s Cleveland still boasted as being one of the top Fortune 500/HQ cities in the nation. But when Sohio/BP merged out of Cleveland and others followed, jobs left too at an alarming rate. Though I'm a liberal Democrat, I blame much of this on Dennis Kucinich and his 2-year reign of error in the late 1970s in creating a hostile business atmosphere whereby we became the 1st major city since Detroit in the Depression to default on bank loan... Dennis wasn't the only reason, for sure, but he was a large part of it...

... Also the remnants of Albert S. Porter and his subway-killing/anti-downtown, pro-freeway/sprawl movement really killed downtown from the early-60s on up to about 2000 when, slowly, downtown started coming back. But the comeback, which is strong today, has been more geared toward attracting residents (almost exclusively through abandoned office building adaptive-reuse), which is great, but many of the businesses still in the area moved out to the perimeter freeways or never entered downtown (ie Eaton and Progressive Insurance, respectively). Of course we have the Clinic and UH (and related industry) in/near University Circle. Then so many jobs are along the freeways, notably I-271, 480 (esp Valley View), 90-west (Westlake), the US 422 extension (Solon), etc... So jobs are scattered, many not even within Cuyahoga County (and thus outside RTA's reach) or in areas not close to RTA routes within the county...

I also agree that RTA management is a mess. Calabrese, though he generally kept the books in order, was disastrous and ultimately was forced out after that pension scandal by a board member. The rail car replacement issue should have been addressed much earlier and there was no solid vision for the future. The biggest rail positive is the TOD development around certain stations, most notably W. 25, Little Italy/UC and the Van Aken terminal.

[ferraris]

Originally Posted by TheProf

Of course we have the Clinic and UH (and related industry) in/near University Circle.

It's worth noting that both of these employers have a significant presence outside of the city, and not just for hospitals. There are major office complexes in Independence, Beachwood, Brecksville, Shaker Heights, Warrensville Heights, and so on.

So jobs are scattered, many not even within Cuyahoga County (and thus outside RTA's reach) or in areas not close to RTA routes within the county...

Is there a way to fix this? Is it even something that most metro Clevelanders want to fix?

[bjimmy24]

I don't know. I don't work in the downtown area and there are a lot of perks to it. I would absolutely hate to be involved in that mess... Working outside of a downtown allows you an easier opportunity to work and live nearby and waste less time in traffic, or even be able to walk to work.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by ferraris

It's worth noting that both of these employers have a significant presence outside of the city, and not just for hospitals. There are major office complexes in Independence, Beachwood, Brecksville, Shaker Heights, Warrensville Heights, and so on.

At least in Shaker Heights, with what little office/commercial space there is (following the Van Sweringen's lead in developing SH during WWI) the suburb has always been overwhelmingly residential/bedroom), it's worth noting that Cleveland Clinic moved into the abandoned OfficeMax headquarters property after the Boise, ID firm bought them out and relocated to suburban Chicago. At least this Shaker property is near a major RTA hub: the reconfigured Blue Line terminal with bus bays adjacent and, of course, the new, thriving Van Aken District retail area right there, also.

Originally Posted by ferraris

Is there a way to fix this? Is it even something that most metro Clevelanders want to fix?

1. We need to really pressure Columbus to up state transit funding. Surprisingly it did creep up a bit with the stodgy Republican legislature and new DeWine admin (to what $70M??). That's still a joke compared with comparable states; not nearly enough.

2. Continue to get RTA, local pols, grass roots groups (like the Green Lake/blue water (or whatever their name is) to push hard on the issue of more TOD building along the Rapid lines... This is happening at a couple RTA stations I mentioned, but there's room for a whole lot more. This kind of smart growth is a win-win for RTA, workers/commuters and neighborhood health overall.

3. Pressure pols (like Frank Jackson's admin and city council) to create a more positive atmosphere for transit. Create more visibility for the Rapid, extend hours (like on the Waterfront Line on summer weekends) and incentive-ize transit more creatively. Biz financing the downtown trolleys is the kind of stuff we need. Great start. What about free all-day passes for drivers who park at the Muni Lot where they can leave their cars, hop on the WFL for the Flats, Tower City and (transfer) over to Ohio City and elsewhere)? We also need to tie in more Flats East Bank based activities with reduced-or-eliminated WFL fares. Stuff like that.

[ferraris]

Originally Posted by TheProf

At least in Shaker Heights, with what little office/commercial space there is (following the Van Sweringen's lead in developing SH during WWI) the suburb has always been overwhelmingly residential/bedroom), it's worth noting that Cleveland Clinic moved into the abandoned OfficeMax headquarters property after the Boise, ID firm bought them out and relocated to suburban Chicago. At least this Shaker property is near a major RTA hub: the reconfigured Blue Line terminal with bus bays adjacent and, of course, the new, thriving Van Aken District retail area right there, also.

It depends if we're talking about what's good for "Cleveland" or what's good for the City of Cleveland. Jobs leaving UC/Downtown for a suburb is bad for the city. But I agree that those Shaker offices in particular could be considered part of the core urbanized area of metro Cleveland. It's a far cry from jobs in say Mayfield or North Olmstead.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by ferraris

It depends if we're talking about what's good for "Cleveland" or what's good for the City of Cleveland. Jobs leaving UC/Downtown for a suburb is bad for the city. But I agree that those Shaker offices in particular could be considered part of the core urbanized area of metro Cleveland. It's a far cry from jobs in say Mayfield or North Olmstead.

I was focusing on what's good for RTA at this point... Of course any migration of jobs out of downtown or Cleveland, generally, is bad for the city. But at least, in this case, Cleveland Clinic has a campus within walking distance of a rail station which is good for workers, esp those without cars. This situation, unfortunately, is very rare for suburban employment in Greater Cleveland.

[mbowes80]

I work in Cleveland ... down the hall from my bedroom. As more white-collar work becomes remote, I find it hard to imagine that the number of people who need to get downtown for work every day, in any city, won't continue to go down. It seems like downtowns will have to redefine themselves as places to live, play, eat, gather, attend events, etc., not as places primarily focused around offices and working ... unless coworking spaces really take off and concentrate themselves in downtown areas.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by mbowes80

I work in Cleveland ... down the hall from my bedroom. As more white-collar work becomes remote, I find it hard to imagine that the number of people who need to get downtown for work every day, in any city, won't continue to go down. It seems like downtowns will have to redefine themselves as places to live, play, eat, gather, attend events, etc., not as places primarily focused around offices and working ... unless coworking spaces really take off and concentrate themselves in downtown areas.

Good point. I also don't think there is anything wrong with being multi-nodal, i.e. more neighborhood-based than downtown-based. There is always something a little sterile and repetitive about most downtowns anyway.

[Kamms]

Originally Posted by mbowes80

I work in Cleveland ... down the hall from my bedroom. As more white-collar work becomes remote, I find it hard to imagine that the number of people who need to get downtown for work every day, in any city, won't continue to go down. It seems like downtowns will have to redefine themselves as places to live, play, eat, gather, attend events, etc., not as places primarily focused around offices and working ... unless coworking spaces really take off and concentrate themselves in downtown areas.

Remote work is a huge factor in all of this; read recently where the number of remote workers exceeds public transit users.

Also, the growth in a place like downtown Cleveland doesn't translate into RTA riders necessarily; walk to or ride to work. Same applies to these alleged TOD housing developments around RTA rapid stations.

Cleveland needs jobs generally and placed as to be accessible to transit ie. the rapid transit system in particular.