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Hello all. Last night my world was rocked when my wife called me from the airport on her way home about being offered her dream job at Cleveland Clinic. On one hand, I couldn't be more happy for her. She's worked hard for the last 10 years to get to this place in her career. She 100% deserves it and has wanted this since she went to medical school. Her journey to become a oncologist has uprooted me from my home in Chicago to living in Lansing, MI for 6 years while she attended medical school and had her residency and most recently 3 glorious years in Charleston, SC in the sun and right near the beach for her fellowship where we currently reside. On the other hand this job offer means I would have to relocate with our 2 year old son to Cleveland.
We're faced with a decision between two excellent offers. One in Raleigh-Durham, NC that is good with an area that is vibrant, lots of opportunity and great weather, and her now dream job at Cleveland Clinic blessed with a salary far above what she was expecting.
So what's the hold up to go with the clearly best offer for her career? It's me. I just can't see myself happy in a place like Cleveland. In fact, I see it as absolutely soul crushing. I would be embarassed say I live there and be telling people I'm originally from Chicago as I did for the 6 years I lived in MI. And please don't take anything as a personal attack. I'm facing a major life decision for our family and this is truly a major hurdle for me.
I've spent time in your city over the last few years when she did a rotation at Cleveland Clinic in medical school. I've seen the metroparks, the zoo, the market downtown, little italy, etc. I found it dissapointing the lakefront has no trails, beaches or parks and is cut off by I-90. It's alot of what is echoed in the threads here. I've read a lot of them. I know you all hate the Cleveland tourism videos but upon my first visit I literally saw just about everything in the videos within my first hour visiting.
I've lived in Lansing, MI so I am all too familar with the destruction of rust belt areas, the winter weather which literally crushes my soul (I suffered from SADD, but not any longer in the south) and living in a tough place. We negagted that some by living near a park in the woods and an inland lake on the west side of town. As a native Chicagoan I've grown up with and experienced the best the midwest has to offer. Living in Michigan was very hard for me as everyone was from there and was obessed with themselves and Michigan in general. No transplants at all. I could care less about their sports teams, the food was bland, and I am reading a lot of similar themes about Cleveland - insular and obsessed with itself.
To me the only good thing about Cleveland is it is the site of the miracle - November 2, 2016 - when the Cubs won the World Series vs. The Indians, something I never thought I would see in my lifetime.
The other major nonstarter for me is taxes. People are fleeing Chicago in droves over this issue, but if you live there at least Chicago is still a world class city. Cleveland area property taxes are absolutely SHOCKING. The income taxes from cities on top of state is unreal. We are both highly compensated professionals so we would be crushed compared to living in North Carolina. I think about the college educations we could fund for our children out the door every few years lost to Ohio taxes and what are we getting in return? It's a very unattractive value proposition.
If we make the move, Cleveland is likely to be the place we will stay for 15-20 years to raise our family while my wife has the career she has dreamed of at Cleveland Clinic. We'd eventually downshift and retire back to the south, perhaps Charleston again!
So, good people of Cleveland, am I wrong to feel this way? Any other doctor spouses that made this move that felt this way? Am I being too dramatic?
If it provides any perspective, your sentiments about this region are 100% how I feel about South Carolina at large, but also Charleston outside of the historic core. Not every place is for everyone.
I'm not sure, exactly, the type of reassuring feedback you would appreciate as nearly all of your reservations are subjective. Also there is, quite literally, a beach here and also a pretty extensive trail network, even if the latter is not entirely on the lake (though the lake-adjacent trail connectivity is also increasing).
In my experience thus far, the extremely low cost of living more than offsets any concerns about taxes.
It would be easier to help identify strengths if you provided things you enjoy. I could say that I am very pleased with relocating here, but the factors that constitute why I am satisfied could be very different than ones that would make it worthwhile for you.
If it provides any perspective, your sentiments about this region are 100% how I feel about South Carolina at large, but also Charleston outside of the historic core. Not every place is for everyone.
I'm not sure, exactly, the type of reassuring feedback you would appreciate as nearly all of your reservations are subjective. Also there is, quite literally, a beach here and also a pretty extensive trail network, even if the latter is not entirely on the lake (though the lake-adjacent trail connectivity is also increasing). In my experience thus far, the extremely low cost of living more than offsets any concerns about taxes.
It would be easier to help identify strengths if you provided things you enjoy. I could say that I am very pleased with relocating here, but the factors that constitute why I am satisfied could be very different than ones that would make it worthwhile for you.
I thought the same about South Carolina before I moved here. I thought I would be a "Yankee", it would be southern accents, small minded people, etc. It couldn't be further from the truth. The people are the NICEST of anywhere I have lived. The natural beauty of the area is just incredible. It has a very low cost of living. The reality is Charleston is largely transplants from the midwest. The locals are outnumbered by transplants. Tons of Ohio, Illinois and PA people. In fact, the influx of Ohio people is so great it is a local meme here. GBTO (Go back to Ohio) as a tounge in cheek friendly thing. Spend a little time on the Charleston Reddit page and you'll see it everywhere. Ohio State and Big Ten flags are the rule here. The food here is absolutely world class as well.
Ok, what do I like. Good food. The beach. Swimming. Road biking and running. I run the Chicago marathon each year so I spend a lot of hours on running trails. Being outside. You can see why it is incompatiable with winter But weather is not an issue, Yes I will hate it. I grew up with it, I've seen the worst of it in 2013-2014 and know what it is about. I like hot and humid. Hate crisp fall days. But I can deal.
I keep reading low cost of living. How so? Based on the tax burden I view Cleveland as bad as Chicago/Illinois, if not worse. I'm seeing $500K houses with 15K property tax burdens, for example. In Illinois it would be $4-5K for that type of house, and only $1100 here in SC.
Also, Ohio has state and city taxes (city tax being something I have never seen, and Chicago taxes everything!)
Last edited by cubsguy81; 01-15-2020 at 09:31 AM..
Hello all. Last night my world was rocked when my wife called me from the airport on her way home about being offered her dream job at Cleveland Clinic. On one hand, I couldn't be more happy for her. She's worked hard for the last 10 years to get to this place in her career. She 100% deserves it and has wanted this since she went to medical school. Her journey to become a oncologist has uprooted me from my home in Chicago to living in Lansing, MI for 6 years while she attended medical school and had her residency and most recently 3 glorious years in Charleston, SC in the sun and right near the beach for her fellowship where we currently reside. On the other hand this job offer means I would have to relocate with our 2 year old son to Cleveland.
We're faced with a decision between two excellent offers. One in Raleigh-Durham, NC that is good with an area that is vibrant, lots of opportunity and great weather, and her now dream job at Cleveland Clinic blessed with a salary far above what she was expecting.
So what's the hold up to go with the clearly best offer for her career? It's me. I just can't see myself happy in a place like Cleveland. In fact, I see it as absolutely soul crushing. I would be embarassed say I live there and be telling people I'm originally from Chicago as I did for the 6 years I lived in MI. And please don't take anything as a personal attack. I'm facing a major life decision for our family and this is truly a major hurdle for me.
I've spent time in your city over the last few years when she did a rotation at Cleveland Clinic in medical school. I've seen the metroparks, the zoo, the market downtown, little italy, etc. I found it dissapointing the lakefront has no trails, beaches or parks and is cut off by I-90. It's alot of what is echoed in the threads here. I've read a lot of them. I know you all hate the Cleveland tourism videos but upon my first visit I literally saw just about everything in the videos within my first hour visiting.
I've lived in Lansing, MI so I am all too familar with the destruction of rust belt areas, the winter weather which literally crushes my soul (I suffered from SADD, but not any longer in the south) and living in a tough place. We negagted that some by living near a park in the woods and an inland lake on the west side of town. As a native Chicagoan I've grown up with and experienced the best the midwest has to offer. Living in Michigan was very hard for me as everyone was from there and was obessed with themselves and Michigan in general. No transplants at all. I could care less about their sports teams, the food was bland, and I am reading a lot of similar themes about Cleveland - insular and obsessed with itself.
To me the only good thing about Cleveland is it is the site of the miracle - November 2, 2016 - when the Cubs won the World Series vs. The Indians, something I never thought I would see in my lifetime.
The other major nonstarter for me is taxes. People are fleeing Chicago in droves over this issue, but if you live there at least Chicago is still a world class city. Cleveland area property taxes are absolutely SHOCKING. The income taxes from cities on top of state is unreal. We are both highly compensated professionals so we would be crushed compared to living in North Carolina. I think about the college educations we could fund for our children out the door every few years lost to Ohio taxes and what are we getting in return? It's a very unattractive value proposition.
If we make the move, Cleveland is likely to be the place we will stay for 15-20 years to raise our family while my wife has the career she has dreamed of at Cleveland Clinic. We'd eventually downshift and retire back to the south, perhaps Charleston again!
So, good people of Cleveland, am I wrong to feel this way? Any other doctor spouses that made this move that felt this way? Am I being too dramatic?
Just some quick thoughts about your concerns. BTW, when were you in Cleveland?
1) Check out post 13 in this thread. Few Americans, despite the ongoing catastrophe in Australia, understand the accelerating consequences of climate change in coming years. It's unlikely that the federal government, given its own dire budget condition, will be able to continue to subsidize coastal states, especially when it becomes evident in this decade that sea level rise is accelerating rapidly and inundation, sunny day flooding, more intense storm damage, etc., are inevitable.
2) Property tax rates are high in Greater Cleveland because property values are relatively low so higher rates are needed to provide desired levels of service. Don't focus on property taxes, but on the monthly after-tax cost of ownership for comparable properties.
3) Chicago's and Illinois' financial conditions are dire compared to Cleveland and Ohio, and my perception is that taxes in Chicago are much higher than in Cleveland. Am I wrong?
4) I wonder if your knowledge of Cleveland is as great as perceived by you. E.g., have you ever been to Lake Metroparks Farmpark, a favorite destination for young children? Holden Arboretum? Mentor Headlands Beach State Park and the surrounding natural areas? Presque Isle?
5) On the west side, new bike paths soon will connect the lakefront with Cuyahoga Valley National Park. I suspect you haven't carefully checked the biking opportunities in Cleveland. Admittedly, biking in Cleveland is not the same experience as along the Chicago lakefront; I've biked from the Shedd Aquarium to Grant Park and greatly enjoyed even that short biking experience.
6) You seemingly aren't very interested in high culture if you believe the experience in the Carolinas is superior to Cleveland. The Cleveland Orchestra does not take a back seat even to the superb Chicago Symphony Orchestra, especially given the higher quality of the Cleveland Orchestra's facilities. Have you ever been to Blossom Music Center? Your kids would love it, and lawn tickets are free for children. The Cleveland Museum of Art has free admission and has technology that wasn't remotely available at the Chicago Art Institute when I last visited it a couple years ago.
Cleveland cultural institutions are wonderfully kid focused.
7) Playhouse Square is a wonderful asset for young children and adults. Have you ever been there?
8) What knowledge do you have about living in Cleveland suburbs, such as Chagrin Falls or Rocky River? Have you ever visited either? See page 42 here and check out the South Chagrin Reservation of the Cleveland Metroparks.
SADD is a legitimate concern, but harsh Cleveland winters (sadly IMO as I favor four distinct seasons of weather) are disappearing as climate change takes hold.
Candidly, your boldfaced concerns are humorous to me. I have different reservations about living in the Carolinas, as I detested the heat and humidity that I experienced there even decades ago and even in the mountains around Asheville. I also don't want to live anywhere with an inferior high culture environment. I greatly enjoy Lake Erie, still offering surf beaches although a very different experience than ocean beaches. Were you aware that Lake Erie is warmer than Lake Michigan in summer?
Your comment about being embarrassed saying you were from Chicago and now had been relegated to Cleveland was offensively ignorant IMO. Chicago hubris, believe it or not, is well known in the Midwest, but, thankfully, much less elevated than in Boston and New York City.
I generally find the food and bar scenes in Cleveland to be relatively developed and complex, even compared to things I encounter when I'm traveling (I would put a lot of my experiences here ahead of ones in Seattle and Philadelphia, for example). I actually noticed a decent amount of cocktail overlap between Stockholm and Cleveland, which was unexpected. Overall, though, I think that's largely a product of urban cultures all sort of being more similar than different in the modern era. There are definitely a lot of food/experience types that just have not popped up here because it's just a smaller region.
I'm a decently heavy all-year road biker (did about 25 miles last night, for example). I do it more as a means of transportation as opposed to just riding for the sake of riding, but I do increase my number of leisurely rides in the summer. During those rides I also introduce trail riding and I find the trail network here to be, overall, very good. With the completion of a few in-progress projects, you will be able to trail bike from Edgewater Beach to Akron via the Cuyahoga Valley National Park (approximately 40 miles each way). There are active biking and running groups throughout all seasons, so you would absolutely be able to continue these activities in the winter if you acquire the proper gear. The on-road bike lane network is slowly growing in the city and region thanks to advocacy groups like Bike Cleveland.
Pricier suburbs absolutely have higher tax burdens, so I would advise you consider property directly within the city of Cleveland, though parts of Cleveland are also starting to see increases in assessed tax values. Understandably, the South is generally much cheaper, but in my opinion you have more assets/amenities within easier reach in Cleveland's higher-tax areas than in much of the South. I understand I can't really speak to how any of my above experiences translate to someone living outside the urban core because I live within the city and therefore all of these services, amenities, etc. are readily accessible as opposed to someone in Hunting Valley.
Just some quick thoughts about your concerns. BTW, when were you in Cleveland?
1) Check out post 13 in this thread. Few Americans, despite the catastrophe in Australia, understand the consequences of climate change in the coming years. It's unlikely that the federal government, given its own dire budget condition, will be able to continue to subsidize coastal states, especially when it becomes evident in this decade that sea level rise is accelerating rapidly and inundation, sunny day flooding, more intense storm damage, etc., are inevitable.
2) Property taxes are high in Greater Cleveland because property values are relatively low. Don't focus on property taxes, but the monthly cost of ownership for comparable properties.
3) Chicago's and Illinois' financial conditions are dire compared to Cleveland and Ohio, and my perception is that taxes in Chicago are much higher than in Cleveland. Am I wrong?
4) I wonder if your knowledge of Cleveland is as great as perceived by you. E.g., have you ever been to Lake Metroparks Farmpark, a favorite destination for young children? Holden Arboretum? Mentor Headlands Beach State Park and the surrounding natural areas? Presque Isle?
5) On the west side, new bike paths soon will connect the lakefront with Cuyahoga Valley National Park. I suspect you haven't carefully checked the biking opportunities in Cleveland. Admittedly, biking in Cleveland is not the same experience as along the Chicago lakefront; I've biked from the Shedd Aquarium to Grant Park and greatly enjoyed even that short biking experience.
6) You seemingly aren't very interested in high culture if you believe the experience in the Carolinas is comparable to Cleveland. The Cleveland Orchestra does not take a back seat to the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, especially given the higher quality of its facilities. Have you ever been to Blossom Music Center? Your kids would love it, and lawn tickets are free for children. The Cleveland Museum of Art has free admission and has technology that wasn't remotely available at the Chicago Art Institute when I last visited it a couple years ago.
Cleveland cultural institutions are wonderfully kid focused.
7) Playhouse Square is a wonderful asset for young children and adults. Have you ever been there?
8) What knowledge do you have about living in Cleveland suburbs, such as Chagrin Falls or Rocky River? Have you ever visited either? See page 42 here and check out the South Chagrin Reservation of the Cleveland Metroparks.
SADD is a legitimate concern, but winters seem to be disappearing as climate change takes hold.
Candidly, your boldfaced concerns are humorous to me. I have different reservations about living in the Carolinas, as I detested the heat and humidity that I experienced there even decades ago and even in the mountains around Asheville. I also don't want to live anywhere with an inferior high culture environment. I greatly enjoy Lake Erie, still offering surf beaches although a very different experience than ocean beaches. Were you aware that Lake Erie is warmer than Lake Michigan in summer?
I was last in Cleveland in 2017, the majority of my time spent there was in 2014.
1) Weather wise, we like different things. I absolutely love heat and humidity, but I know I am a minority.
2) The high property taxes negate the low cost of houses. You have to pay the property taxes annually, and they only go up, not down. From what I see it is worse than Illinois.
3) Chicago and Illnois financial situation is in fact dire. The day of recoking is coming. I actually persuaded my wife to not return there given this, but now I am having regrets becuase if I have to pay high taxes I would rather it be a place I know and am comfortable with and have lots of friends and family. But that is not to be.
4) I have been to many, but not all of the Metroparks. I think they are fantastic and surprising they exist.
5) Agree.
6) I know great culture having grown up in Chicago. Charleston is compares to no other US city given it's history in our country. It's truly a one of a kind place and the restaurant scene is almost better than Chicago, except for the fact it is more concentrated in seafood which I happen to enjoy! I don't think it is fair to say there is no culture here at all. Having lived here I can tell you it is rich with culture, but I had the same opinion it probably was lacking before I moved here.
I don't miss not having sports teams here. My teams are Chicago and it's actually great being in a place with fans from all over the country, including many Chicago fans. In Cleveland the sports teams won't exist to me and I wouldn't have that in common with anyone. I think of my son growing up where all his friends follow Cleveland and we won't, outside of when we can go to a game when Chicago is in town.
7) Not familiar with playhouse square. Theater is great, but not on the list of things important to me.
8) Tell me the suburbs where doctors live with great schools, and keep me out of the snowbelt. Our budget would be up to $800K, but don't need to spend that. We'd be happy spending less.
I know Lake Erie is warmer in the summer, because it is shallow. It also leads to toxic algae blooms and brown drinking water in Cleveland. Not good... I read this recently - not good at all. https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...bse-story.html
Thank you for your thoughtful replies. I'm trying to see if I'm really just being too hard on myself and making a too big a deal of this.
I generally find the food and bar scenes in Cleveland to be relatively developed and complex, even compared to things I encounter when I'm traveling (I would put a lot of my experiences here ahead of ones in Seattle and Philadelphia, for example). I actually noticed a decent amount of cocktail overlap between Stockholm and Cleveland, which was unexpected. Overall, though, I think that's largely a product of urban cultures all sort of being more similar than different in the modern era. There are definitely a lot of food/experience types that just have not popped up here because it's just a smaller region.
I'm a decently heavy all-year road biker (did about 25 miles last night, for example). I do it more as a means of transportation as opposed to just riding for the sake of riding, but I do increase my number of leisurely rides in the summer. During those rides I also introduce trail riding and I find the trail network here to be, overall, very good. With the completion of a few in-progress projects, you will be able to trail bike from Edgewater Beach to Akron via the Cuyahoga Valley National Park (approximately 40 miles each way). There are active biking and running groups throughout all seasons, so you would absolutely be able to continue these activities in the winter if you acquire the proper gear. The on-road bike lane network is slowly growing in the city and region thanks to advocacy groups like Bike Cleveland.
Pricier suburbs absolutely have higher tax burdens, so I would advise you consider property directly within the city of Cleveland, though parts of Cleveland are also starting to see increases in assessed tax values. Understandably, the South is generally much cheaper, but in my opinion you have more assets/amenities within easier reach in Cleveland's higher-tax areas than in much of the South. I understand I can't really speak to how any of my above experiences translate to someone living outside the urban core because I live within the city and therefore all of these services, amenities, etc. are readily accessible as opposed to someone in Hunting Valley.
Good to hear on food/drinks. I have concerns after living in Michigan. We detest chains and I saw too much of that last time I was in town.
Biking will definitely be better in Cleveland than Charleston. Its almost impossible here as there are few trails and no shoulders on the roads.
We've lived in an urban environment, but at this stage of life we'd like a decent size house and some privacy. This doesn't mean out in the country, but we don't want to be on top of our neighbors either. Does Cleveland itself have lower property taxes with good schools?
We're thinking the suburbs will be the best option to us, preferably with easy access to a metropark we could bike and run to from our driveway.
2) The high property taxes negate the low cost of houses. You have to pay the property taxes annually, and they only go up, not down. From what I see it is worse than Illinois.
Extremely dubious. See the following, although it compares only Cleveland proper with Chicago proper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cubsguy81
6) Charleston is compares to no other US city given it's history in our country. It's truly a one of a kind place....
Ridiculous. Charleston pales against Greater Philadelphia and Greater Washington, whether Virginia or Maryland, in historic attractions and their relative significance. And both regions thump the Carolinas in high culture. Day trips by rail from Philadelphia to NYC are possible. Admittedly, South Carolina offers some superb historical attractions, such as the Cowpens National Battlefield, site of a small but extremely important battle in American history as it ultimately led to the British surrender at Yorktown.
Given its proximity to Dayton and The Henry Ford, let alone very good local history destinations such as Kirtland (see discussion in day trips article below) and the James A. Garfield National Historic Site, I think Cleveland offers a substantial history experience. I wouldn't want my children raised in a state that still values Confederate war memorials, where the schools teach that the Civil War was fought over state rights and not slavery, and where neo-Confederates have significant influence.
I don't miss not having sports teams here. My teams are Chicago and it's actually great being in a place with fans from all over the country, including many Chicago fans. In Cleveland the sports teams won't exist to me and I wouldn't have that in common with anyone. I think of my son growing up where all his friends follow Cleveland and we won't, outside of when we can go to a game when Chicago is in town.
Did you play sports??? I know your attitude exists, but it is foreign to me as I'm not as much a "homer" as a general sports fan, especially of the several sports that I played as a kid. Don't get me wrong -- I especially enjoy Cleveland teams and Ohio State, but some of my best sports experiences have been elsewhere, such as seeing a game at the Palestra in Philadelphia many decades ago. When living outside of Cleveland, I quickly developed a deep interest in new teams, and I've certainly had friends who moved to Cleveland who developed deep interest in Cleveland franchises that followed them even as they moved across the country.
I've also learned to enjoy sports that I barely knew that existed as a kid, such as lacrosse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cubsguy81
8) Tell me the suburbs where doctors live with great schools, and keep me out of the snowbelt. Our budget would be up to $800K, but don't need to spend that. We'd be happy spending less.
I live in Cleveland's snow belt and it has been almost non-existent the last two winters, especially on its fringes. With your housing budget and kids, I would check out Chagrin Falls or the Orange School District, perhaps Pepper Pike or Moreland Hills, for an easier commute to the Clinic than Chagrin Falls. Will your wife be able to split her work time between east side Clinic locations?
Rocky River would be a top pick on the west side further away from the snow belt, and yet a still easy commute to the Clinic main campus. Both Rocky River and Pepper Pike would be about 25 minute commutes from the Clinic main campus.
Shaker Hts is a possibility, but it has likely the highest property tax rates in Greater Cleveland, not your cup of tea regardless of the amenities and housing stock. Beachwood is a possibility, especially as it has among the lowest property tax rates in Greater Cleveland.
One other perhaps significant point. You would be much closer to Illinois friends and family (and the Cubs!) living in Cleveland than in the Carolinas.
Moving is scary and Cleveland certainly has its challenges, but I think you're being awfully melodramatic and cynical with these comments. You need to have an open mind and accept that it'll be a process to acclimate to Cleveland, but that could be said about any city where you would move.
Why not take a few quick trips before the move, get a feel for some of the suburbs (or city neighborhoods if you're inclined). Chagrin Falls, Shaker Heights, Lakewood, Rocky River - there is a lot to like about living in those places.
I appreciate all the comments I am very set in my ways I hope I don't come off as being crass or harsh. You have to admit that having grown up in a place like Chicago with everything at your fingertips and then living near the beach with warm weather and then being told that we're going to move the Cleveland your first reaction probably would not be of excitement.... That's what I'm going through. I will check out the different areas that are listed here I'm already familiar with Shaker heights and have ruled it out due to the taxes. I'm sure we'll be able to find the right balance of everything for us. We will be making a trip up before making the final decision and having made this type of move now three times in the last 10 years we are pros in doing it.
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But weather is not an issue, Yes I will hate it. I grew up with it, I've seen the worst of it in 2013-2014 and know what it is about. I like hot and humid. Hate crisp fall days. But I can deal.
