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I don't really see much of the bias that you're inferring here. Admittedly, I probably don't read into that many threads where it would happen on this sub-forum.
Kudos to anyone who can create a career out of their passion regardless of subject. I think that the people who are encouraging younger people to go into something more profitable do so because of their own experiences. With the cost to get a degree almost tripling in a few decades, the time spent to degree edging towards 6 years, and low graduation rates I would advise anyone who wanted to go to college to do so with some foresight. And what is wrong with a student to be interested in pursuing something that is going to be worth their time, energy and money?
Absolutely agree. If you can find a 'passion' and 'career' combined, then all the more power to you. My 'passion' lets me do things I have always wanted to do, but would never make any money for me to survive (in fact, it is a huge loss). My 'career' allows me to fund my 'passion'.
For what it's worth, I don't think that anyone should be going to college in order to find themselves or just to please their parents.
As you stated, they should have foresight, and do some realistic planning (unless they have silver spoons/trust funds, and then it doesn't matter).
I do have to disagree with you on the following areas in particular.
Outside of a creative writing (possibly english or journalism?) major what other degrees would be asked to write a readable story? And how many sociologists, teachers, nurses, or philosophy majors are required to produce a work of art?
I think the term 'readable' is rather subjective (since mine is biased towards the technical end of the spectrum). I would think a readable story (and I prefer the term 'document') means; conveying the point/goal in a logical, consistent manner, accuracy, correct spelling, correct grammar, stating the goal, supporting statements, summary, good topic flow, etc. This is not really for writing haiku or sonnets...
In industry, we write them all the time. (and yes, we can identify a dangling participle or gerund).
We have whole huge departments writing operations manuals, so they not only have to follow the above definition, but be technically savvy.
As for 'works of art', they would be laughing at all of us if they saw how we draw. The sole graphics designer we have (for a large organization), however, can do the trick.
Those are some pretty random examples that only someone who is majoring in a specific subfield of a specific discipline would ever encounter.
I do actually enjoy writing and know a number of other engineers who do as well. You'd be surprised how often we actually have to write in our everyday lives. I actually carry a copy of Strunk & White in my laptop bag which goes everywhere with me. We don't spend all day with a slide rule talking down upon all the other humans who couldn't even solve a simple quadratic.
I too enjoy writing, and have a few S&W's floating around. Recently I noticed that starting sentences with conjunctions such as 'and' or 'but' is now much more widely accepted.
Now, now, when was the last time you used a slide rule? It is worse than talking to those that can't solving a simple quadratic... try using the word 'polynomial'. My belief is that all others can teach me something, so I would never talk down to them.
On a base level I do think that anyone who can't pass college level algebra, trig, or stats should not be awarded a college degree. None of the concepts in any of those classes goes into much more detail than high school level math. If that is frustrating or boring than so be it. Life can be frustrating and often boring. My beliefs have nothing to do with intellectualism, but any college graduate should be able to do simple calculations just as well as they can write clearly and be able to interpret readings at a college level. Anyone who gets any degree and cannot do algebra, stats, trig is only doing themselves a disservice.
Yes. My motto is to 'learn everything about everything, as much as you can.' (OT) One thing I have learned is that those from Asia and India that work for me (grew up there, and went to US universities) know English, math and history far better then many of the US-raised job candidates.
Anyone in a social science should be familiar with statistics at the very least. Most of the social science students take a watered down course in the field. Any "artist" should be familiar with the physical manifestation of colors, geometry, and how there canvasses are prepared. Why is taking entry level courses in math and science so daunting?
On the opposite side, it was tough where I went to school, because for a PhD (say in the technical sciences or engineering), you had to have two foreign languages, and you were thrown in the same courses as the language majors -- the word 'language tutor' comes to mind.
If anything I get more frustrated by the people who claim college is about learning new things but have this crazy math-phobia that has swept the nation in the last few generations.
Agreed. College is to learn everything you can, in the few short years you have there.
In my experience I have meet the number of people who would fit this bill on one hand. I will concede that this is likely due to my own personal experiences/relationships and doesn't hold true universally. I do know a number of friends whose college experience was following their love, or finding themselves, and they have been the only people I know who have gone back to school for different fields or have married well enough to be a stay at home parent. Ten years after college now puts most people between 32-34. How many people go back to school to get re-educated at that point in their lifes? The people I know who are that age are worried about putting food on the table or making sure that their children are being taken care of. Now that I'm thinking about it the only people who I do know who have gone back to school at that age are doing grad level work in the field that they have their degree in. I honestly don't know a single person who has gone back to change their field at that point in their life.
I am familiar with all but one of the people who you've listed, but many of the Philosophers and Keynes were avid students of mathematics. Any philosophy major worth their salt should be able to study basic math at least through a couple of semesters of Calculus. My most disappointing classes in college were the watered down Philosophy classes on logic, reason, and debate that had no grounding in the key foundations of Philosophy.
What a university teaches is largely independent of what their graduating classes know.
Not my exact experience (having worked with over a thousand engineers so far), but then again they all came from top-tier schools, and are mostly either Asian-Americans, or Indian-Americans, so my sample set is biased.
(Even those that have challenged writing skills, the availability of decent spell checkers and grammar checkers work wonders, and they learn from it. The important thing for technical types is to get their ideas, strategies and points across. Writing a technical document in iambic pentameter impresses no one, other than the LA major, and everyone else couldn't care less).
Well said.
This whole mantra that technical people can't write is a bunch of crap. Lets not make someones inability to write creatively to their inability to write period.
In engineering school I only took two courses from the English department. Which were a total waste of time because they were taught by an English prof. who did not have experience in technical writing. However, almost all of my technical courses had a lab or project requirement that required a significant amount of writing.
As and engineer I write proposals, reports, operations & maintenance manuals, and specifications all the time. I probably do more writing than engineering work most of the time.
This whole mantra that technical people can't write is a bunch of crap. Lets not make someones inability to write creatively to their inability to write period.
In engineering school I only took two courses from the English department. Which were a total waste of time because they were taught by an English prof. who did not have experience in technical writing. However, almost all of my technical courses had a lab or project requirement that required a significant amount of writing.
As and engineer I write proposals, reports, operations & maintenance manuals, and specifications all the time. I probably do more writing than engineering work most of the time.
On the flipside, I have am a technician, I have to read, interpret and understand in a logical way the very manuals that are given from the engineers.
I also have to do a fair amount of writing myself. When there is a descrpancy, I have to thoroughly describe the issues I have on the product I am working on, what the conditions are supposed to be, what the conditions I am facing are, some possible issues and solutions I have come up with.
An Engineer takes this info interprets and helps validate any solutions I came up with, with engineering parameters. Or helps discover a solution to the problem we are faced with.
I also have to read technical manuals, and everytime I touch an airplane I have to cite the exact source that gave me the authority to perform the work that I did.
Oh, and I hope your poor child never sets foot at Northeastern University. The doses of real life and (gasp) return on investment will be far too much to take.
On the flipside, I have am a technician, I have to read, interpret and understand in a logical way the very manuals that are given from the engineers.
I also have to do a fair amount of writing myself. When there is a descrpancy, I have to thoroughly describe the issues I have on the product I am working on, what the conditions are supposed to be, what the conditions I am facing are, some possible issues and solutions I have come up with.
An Engineer takes this info interprets and helps validate any solutions I came up with, with engineering parameters. Or helps discover a solution to the problem we are faced with.
I also have to read technical manuals, and everytime I touch an airplane I have to cite the exact source that gave me the authority to perform the work that I did.
Exactly. If I don't properly make a 'readable story' (as the original poster stated), then you can't do your job, then I am doing a disservice to both you and the company. Also, going the other way, feedback from the technicians allows me to continually improve my writing skills, primarily in terms of structure, continuity and content.
So while I see the desire for some to explore the arts... In almost all of industry (which keeps this country going) knowing that blank verse is closely related to iambic pentameter, which is very different from trochaic meter, isn't going to help you, me, or virtually anyone else in a business that keeps us all solvent.
I think the term 'readable' is rather subjective (since mine is biased towards the technical end of the spectrum). I would think a readable story (and I prefer the term 'document') means; conveying the point/goal in a logical, consistent manner, accuracy, correct spelling, correct grammar, stating the goal, supporting statements, summary, good topic flow, etc. This is not really for writing haiku or sonnets...
In industry, we write them all the time. (and yes, we can identify a dangling participle or gerund).
We have whole huge departments writing operations manuals, so they not only have to follow the above definition, but be technically savvy.
Maybe, but at the same time you have inconsistencies in this very text. You also have multiple rivers flowing through it. I'm sure being the brilliant person you are you already knew this though.
Maybe, but at the same time you have inconsistencies in this very text. You also have multiple rivers flowing through it. I'm sure being the brilliant person you are you already knew this though.
No one cares.
The fact is, writing isn't something that needs to be learned in a college environment. It is something that is learned in high school. So why go on and study it in college? Creativity cannot be taught in college.
I laugh at people who earlier said engineering can be learned in a library. Actual engineering needs to be taught, they don't have books on a lot of the material covered. Sure, they have books on the basics: thermodynamics, statics, mechanics of materials, aerodynamics...etc. but there are no books on actually implementing those things in the real world. That is what you learn in school and why it is necessary to go to college for it.
Any half-wit can pick up a book and read about famous works of literature. What is the point of sitting in a classroom for that?
Maybe, but at the same time you have inconsistencies in this very text. You also have multiple rivers flowing through it. I'm sure being the brilliant person you are you already knew this though.
Please state the inconsistencies to me, as I need to be enlightened. Please take into account this is informal writing.
The 'multiple rivers', as you state, are intentional. In the business world (if you have ever been there), multi-tasking and context-switching are the norm, not the exception. If you can't follow, then an assembly-line job is in order.
Knowledge is priceless? I can put a price on my post-highschool knowledge, $82k for undergrad and $110k for grad school.
I did an NPV analysis of each school I looked into, did another calculation estimating my person NPV without going to school and picked the option where that number was highest. Spending tens of thousands of dollars to learn how to draw pictures or write poems is nothing short of stupid.
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It is worse than talking to those that can't solving a simple quadratic... try using the word 'polynomial'. My belief is that all others can teach me something, so I would never talk down to them.
