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It is impossible to have $60k (much less $80k) in federal student loans as an undergrad. Even for a fully independent student, the lifetime limit is $57,500.
When you start talking about people who owe $80k, you are almost always talking about students at private for-profit colleges who are taking out private loans through the college. (Incidentally, this same groups makes up the vast majority of loan defaults too.) Ironically, these private for-profit colleges are often tech schools.
What are you talking about? Where I got my grad degree, it is $44k/year for undergrad right now.
Yes, good jobs are much fewer in the arts/liberal arts than it is in engineering, medicine, etc.
But if someone worked really hard at their career, and manages to make a living, why can't you be happy for them?
I would be happy for them, if they contribute something to society that makes this country stronger. Going to school, working hard, contributing is not all about me, me, me, where I can play in never-never land. I may not be an expert at matching primary colors, (either light or pigments), but I can tell when you are having an MI and do something about it. I can design complex mechanical and electrical components. I feel that citizens that live in this country should bring their skills and expertise, that add value, and bring it to the table.. Andrew Wyeth's painting of Christina's World is beautiful. Think about it when you are stroking out. Next time you drive over a bridge, don't look at the pretty colors they painted it, rejoice that the civil engineers that designed it so it doesn't fall down (well, we had a few mishaps) did their job.
I realize Sheena might have rude and condescending in a couple of her posts. But some of you there, (ahem, previous two posters) are being almost ten times worse!
Amazed that there are some people out there that actually think that Studio Art or English are easy majors!
With out a portfolio, you will not be accepted into a BFA program. So there are accountants, and allied health majors who are good artists? Good enough to be accepted into an ACAD accredited art program???
I have met pure Math Majors who think writing a paper is anything but easy. In fact, they have come to me for help and attempted to find out ways to "get out of classes that required reading?"
It doesn't mean they are stupid or slackers - it only means that they are gifted differently. As a member of an honor society a certain amount of tutoring was required.
Liberal Arts or Arts degrees with a Supportive Major work well! We don't have a math major or an engineer in my home.
DH and I were both UG Sociology majors and we work in fields that we love.
I have had the opportunity to work fields as diverse as adoption, writing, college teaching, child advocacy, and educational counseling.
I am going back for my second Masters degree and this time, I'm taking it all the way.
Wow, tell us more about your amazing family and how amazing you are
ROI thinking is wrong....if you're paying only 5-10K for an education;
ROI thinking is correct if you're paying on the order of 40K per year, and you can't blame parents, or the students themselves, for thinking this way. I'd hate to have 60-80K of debt awaiting me after my graduation ceremony, and no obvious way of even putting a dent into it..
Cost is more than tuition - living expenses, opportunity cost, etc.
Yes, good jobs are much fewer in the arts/liberal arts than it is in engineering, medicine, etc.
But if someone worked really hard at their career, and manages to make a living, why can't you be happy for them?
I realize Sheena might have rude and condescending in a couple of her posts. But some of you there, (ahem, previous two posters) are being almost ten times worse!
Thank you! I def agree with the bold.
You know, perhaps some of you who think only of ROI, money, money, money, should go to the library (I would not suggest you actually BUY something as worthless as a book of fiction), and check out "A Christmas Carol" by Charles Dickens. The part about Scrooge's life as a young man is most apropos.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 03-12-2012 at 07:17 PM..
Its not that they Arts/Liberal Arts aren't contributing something for the greater good. Its that the number of positions where you do something for the greater good are a lot smaller than those who have degrees for that field.
If they are making a living, then obviously they are doing something that someone values enough to pay them
If someone is an art major then they contribute to society by say . . . interior design that makes peoples' moods better. Do you want our work places to look like a gloomy sci-fi movie. No. Some artwork on the walls has a quantifiable effect on the psychological well being. Just an example. Or greeting cards. or whatever.
Believe I respect and value fully what engineers do. My own father was an electical engineer. And yes society needs more engineers than artists, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't need some artists.
I'm not in the Arts myself. My Brother however went into music. Hes done A LOT with it, and works on adminstrative/program development for a private music conservatory. My sister-in-law works as an elementary school music teacher. They both take great pride in what they do, and successfully afford a middle class lifestyle.
I myself loved the earth sciences/environmental sciences. Thats where I was naturally inclined. I've had short term employment with environmental consulting companies and government agencies early in my career, but have been teaching at the community college level. And I do take my career path seriously as I believe people need to have an understanding of the way our earth and environment work.
My father the electrical engineer (and Mom who did some programming and systems admin. work) were a little concerned at first about our career choices, but basically agreed that as long as we were serious and goal driven, then they would support us. My Dad NEVER thought that we weren't contributing to the greater good.
I understand your issues with those entitlement-minded people who graduate with an Arts degree, have no clue on how to sell themselves, expect to make lots of money straight out of college, etc., but come on, everything has its value in society.
No one is saying you can't be happy. We are saying you can't complain about debt through student loans if you voluntarily choose to pay tens of thousands of dollars to major in something that typically leads to lower paying jobs.
Do whatever you want, and be happy with it! Just lie in the bed you made for yourself.
Exactly.
(I do like hyperbole); If someone goes to Dartmouth ($55K a year, was just there this weekend), and chooses as his/her life goal to study the social habits of the elephant shrew(Macroscelididae), then a few recommendations are in order:
1). Have a rich daddy
2). Marry really well
3). At some point get a grasp on reality, and understand the concepts of surviving in a capitalist society.
No one is paying that unless they are foolish. The cost of tuition doesn't tell much with kids getting grant/aid/etc.
What is the average debt after graduation at your school for undergrad?
I honestly don't know what the average debt is for undergrad, but my grad program was $54,800 per year last year, and it was a two year program. Most students take out $80k-100k in loans. That being said, the average starting salary out of the program is over six figures, so most people pay it back fairly easily.
If you go into a good program (computer science/engineering/finance/accounting) and work hard, you can pretty easily pay off debt.
The average starting salary where I went for undergrad was around $50k/year for the majors I listed above. If you get that salary, live off of $35k, you would have $80k in debt paid off very quickly.
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