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IMO, a general liberal arts degree is a waste of money:
1. Many classes are just in lecture halls and when smaller groups do meet, they are taught by some TA.
2. The overwhelming number of left-leaning profs who don't even debate issues anymore, but have a habit of presenting only their side of the issue.
3. Anyone who is motivated can get a good liberal arts education through reading various books on philosophy and literature. The library also has many books on theory, literary criticism, etc.
4. Learning to learn is a great concept and should be done by everyone no matter their age. Knowledge is power, but acquiring knowledge can be done in various ways.
I honestly don't know what the average debt is for undergrad, but my grad program was $54,800 per year last year, and it was a two year program. Most students take out $80k-100k in loans. That being said, the average starting salary out of the program is over six figures, so most people pay it back fairly easily.
If you go into a good program (computer science/engineering/finance/accounting) and work hard, you can pretty easily pay off debt.
The average starting salary where I went for undergrad was around $50k/year for the majors I listed above. If you get that salary, live off of $35k, you would have $80k in debt paid off very quickly.
Grad school is another debate. The post you responded to was about undergrad. I'm guessing many in your program had a business paying for at least some of cost.
Grad school is another debate. The post you responded to was about undergrad. I'm guessing many in your program had a business paying for at least some of cost.
At least 80% of students in my grad program did not have a company paying for it. That being said, I don't think grad school in general is worth it if it isn't one of the top 30 or so programs in the field.
The majors I posted were undergrad majors. I started at $54k/year in 2008 right out of undergrad, and I was just a hair above average for the school of computer science at my university.
must spread more rep around before reping supersparkle.
I was wondering, what did you study in college and what kind of career path you took?
If you have an interest in the sciences/engineering, biotech is fairly hot now, and has been for quite a while.
For myself, I was EE, CSys, CS and a few others for masters. Couldn't make the ROI numbers for a PhD, though it perhaps would be beneficial if someone wanted to teach, in his/her later years.
I'm in college with a ROI attitude and proud, I see no reason to go into this much debt without a solid degree and career.
Perfectly stated.
As one of the other posters stated that people don't pay 'list price' for a college/university, my alma mater gives grants/aid of an average of $13K for about 1/3 of the class, but the tuition is over $50K (including room/board). So the student has to cough up (or borrow) $37K each year. People may find that staggering (well, it is a lot of money), but in the sciences/engineering/certain financial marketplaces, someone would be able to pay that back in say 8 years (depending on the specific field). On the other hand, someone working minimum wage who was able to take 30% of their gross to pay down the debt, the amount of time it would take is infinite.
I was taught 'Do what you love, and the money will come'. But that is only a half truth. The other half is 'choose a marketable skill'. By doing the latter, then later in life you can do whatever you want (and if you can find an occupation that gets you both, you hit the jackpot).
You know, perhaps some of you who think only of ROI, money, money, money, should go to the library (I would not suggest you actually BUY something as worthless as a book of fiction), and check out "A Christmas Carol" by Charles Dickens.
I think many of us think of Quality of life, Quality of life, Quality of life.
I could go down to the library and read some fiction, anytime the library is open, 7 days a week (though virtually everything is available online). It's nice to have no responsibilities here. Everyone has different interests. Personally, I have no interest whatsoever in fiction. It is like living in never-never land. But I am reading about the latest biphasic AED's, which I imagine some people care about when they are rolled in on a gurney into the ED.
The part about Scrooge's life as a young man is most apropos.
Mine in red.
Last edited by toobusytoday; 03-13-2012 at 07:59 AM..
Reason: removed snide comment
IMO, a general liberal arts degree is a waste of money:
1. Many classes are just in lecture halls and when smaller groups do meet, they are taught by some TA.
2. The overwhelming number of left-leaning profs who don't even debate issues anymore, but have a habit of presenting only their side of the issue.
3. Anyone who is motivated can get a good liberal arts education through reading various books on philosophy and literature. The library also has many books on theory, literary criticism, etc.
4. Learning to learn is a great concept and should be done by everyone no matter their age. Knowledge is power, but acquiring knowledge can be done in various ways.
My kids went to colleges where the largest class had 35 students and there were/are no TA's.
I think it's incredibly condescending to suggest that a liberal arts education can pretty much be self taught. I'm a huge reader and work in a library but I certainly don't think that reading alone is going to teach me as much as sitting in a classroom and interacting with students and Professors. Libraries don't usually have the technology that today's students learn with.
My kids went to colleges where the largest class had 35 students and there were/are no TA's.
I think it's incredibly condescending to suggest that a liberal arts education can pretty much be self taught. I'm a huge reader and work in a library but I certainly don't think that reading alone is going to teach me as much as sitting in a classroom and interacting with students and Professors. Libraries don't usually have the technology that today's students learn with.
Agreed. The profs have generally done some research in their subject areas as well. Not everything you can find in a library is the best source on a topic, and I'm a great library fan.
My kids went to colleges where the largest class had 35 students and there were/are no TA's.
I think it's incredibly condescending to suggest that a liberal arts education can pretty much be self taught. I'm a huge reader and work in a library but I certainly don't think that reading alone is going to teach me as much as sitting in a classroom and interacting with students and Professors. Libraries don't usually have the technology that today's students learn with.
I don't think that all liberal arts can be self-taught, however I do think a lot of what is taught in college in general could be self-taught. Unless you are at a top tiered school (ranked top 50 or so in that program), I think the material could be learned on one's own. This goes for anything from engineering to english.
The problem is that college has become very watered down. A liberal arts degree from a top ranked school says more than a computer science degree from a 4th tier school.
This is an important point, which many people forget. Science and mathematics, alongside arts.
And this is essentially what I conceive as the difference between what people call a "liberal arts" degree in the modern USA vs what most people would refer to as a humanities degree. On this thread, and frequently on the forum, you'll hear people calling things like art, lit, or history as an LA degree when they really are better described as degrees within the humanities.
I agree with you though Hamish. I know interesting and brilliant people from throughout the degree spectrum, truthfully I know just as many smart people who never went to college as I do professionals. Can't say I've meet a Supreme Court Judge though!
I hope I haven't been a condescending ass or that my posts have been interpreted by anyone that way. I really do value how blessed I've been to be able to spend my life (so far) pursuing what I love. Many of us take for granted how lucky we are to live in this sliver of history. And like Hamish, I've been lucky enough to be friends with some great people who really have given me an insight into how they consider what events in culture, society, art, and science affect our lives.
What are you talking about? Where I got my grad degree, it is $44k/year for undergrad right now.
Schools cannot set their own federal loan limits higher than the national limit.
I don't think your school had a $44k/year federal loan limit. Undergrads are currently limited to $12.5k per year. Even med students, the highest limit, are limited to $40.5k per year. FinAid | Loans | Student Loans
What that means, is if your school has full need aid (most schools do now), then any need past the federal limit must be met by grant in aid. I know there must be some private non-profits out there that use private loans to meet need, but that situation is rare. It is the private for-profits that will use private loans to meet need, and that is how you end up with debt in excess of the federal limits.
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