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Super sparkle: Would you mind giving examples of occupations/careers you think add value/are worth it in a capitalist society.
I was interested by your statement in a previous post.
Absolutely.
The sciences, technology, biomedical/health, manufacturing, business.
Most of the engineering fields, many of science majors, the medical community, building and designing manufacturing technology, and research and development. Computers, automotive industry, mechanics, avionics, military, civil engineering, software, hardware, things we use every day. I could go on with this for hours.
This is what made this country strong. Henry Ford (and GM) most likely could not draw a picture of a face with two eyes on the same side of the head, but all you could do with that picture is hang it on the wall. (Personal opinion here: value added = zero). What are you going to do, hold it up when the Zeros were having a field day in Hawaii? The Pacific fleet didn't just happen by itself.
Michelango, DaVinci and a long list of other famous artisans contributed a great deal to society.
Without a strong manufacturing or technology base, this country is in a lot of trouble.
What made this country strong was not a painter, sculptor any actress or actor, or anyone studying in some obscure historical field (though it may be interesting to learn about, and they create things of beauty, it doesn't do anything for the GNP.).
I think the person you responded to was talking about a four year degree. Not sure why you are surprised about level of math in CC. Kids going to four year schools are doing Calculus in HS.
Not always. And not everyone that goes to a CC first, is an idiot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJoey
Gatornation was correct. I was referencing the bachelors level graduates not vo tech students. People training for certificates or careers at a vo tech are learning a specific skill to be proficient in a specific job. Those jobs often require proficiency exams and/or apprentice like training with specific hours logged before being able to work independently.
Not all CC's are vo-tech. I was just "ranting" about the fact that a great deal of classes were cut from the local CC to make way for more "specialized tech tpye" classes.
I started out at the CC because it was cheaper per credit to get all the Gen-Ed's in, and because the local Uni gives a better scholarship package for transfer students that already have their Associates degree.
Not always. And not everyone that goes to a CC first, is an idiot.
Not all CC's are vo-tech. I was just "ranting" about the fact that a great deal of classes were cut from the local CC to make way for more "specialized tech tpye" classes.
I started out at the CC because it was cheaper per credit to get all the Gen-Ed's in, and because the local Uni gives a better scholarship package for transfer students that already have their Associates degree.
I thought you were discussing the sorry state of nursing education at the CCs. I actually went to a highly rated BSN program, and we were not required to take any math courses. I did take a college algebra course as an elective. We did a lot of math in our chem classes.
Not always. And not everyone that goes to a CC first, is an idiot.
Not all CC's are vo-tech. I was just "ranting" about the fact that a great deal of classes were cut from the local CC to make way for more "specialized tech tpye" classes.
I started out at the CC because it was cheaper per credit to get all the Gen-Ed's in, and because the local Uni gives a better scholarship package for transfer students that already have their Associates degree.
Never said everyone was. The average kid going to a four year school is smarter and a better student than the one going to CC on average.
The problem is that you have a generation of people graduating tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and can expect to spend a decade or more after college paying it back with little return on their investment. The big problem is the system that allows universities to drain families' savings without providing sufficient return. People should have broad educations, and be familiar with a wide range of topics: history, the English language, significant proficiency in a foreign language, economics, computers . . . the list goes on, and even our liberal arts grads aren't always sufficiently-educated in these areas. But it hardly makes sense for everyone to take on a $50,000 burden only to wind up un- or under-employed.
One solution is embracing trade schools, community colleges, and the idea that a four-year school isn't for everyone. It was the dream of our grandparents to send their children to college, but now young people are going to school without a clue, without direction. Look at how many people drink and party their college years away, leaving 4 (or 6 or 8) years later no smarter, no better, no wiser than when they entered.
But that still leaves us with the situation we have now: rich people can afford good educations (from kindergarten through grad school) and poor people are left with few choices beyond the military and the service industry. People deserve better than having to choose between frying hamburgers or murdering foreigners.
People should explore what interests them, and work to improve themselves. With a little time googling one can find pretty much a whole undergraduate education in a lot of fields online (in an afternoon in front of a computer you can find syllabi, reading lists, and notes from real university courses online). As a culture, and compared to other countries and cultures, we've lost this thirst for knowledge and self-improvement. We are very wasteful with our time, and it's no wonder nations around the world are working harder, working smarter, and passing the US by.
If you are going to spend $20,000 (or $200,000) for an education, you should reasonably expect it to pay off. That can be financially (no sense going into massive debt to learn how to play beer pong) or emotionally. But let's move away from the idea that a four-year education is absolutely essential for every 18-year-old in the country.
I thought you were discussing the sorry state of nursing education at the CCs. I actually went to a highly rated BSN program, and we were not required to take any math courses. I did take a college algebra course as an elective. We did a lot of math in our chem classes.
And I spent three years at a highly competitive university. We were required to fulfill our major requirements, and upper division course requirements. Other than that, the remainder of our classes were chosen with the assistance of our adviser and were bases upon our interests and plans for graduate or professional school. I completed my undergraduate degree at a well regarded state university where I was required to take science courses in order to graduate. While they were interesting, I doubt that I will ever use them, and I could have taken something that would have been more useful.
There were no remedial classes, however anyone who scored under 600(may have been lower but that's what I suspect) on the verbal section of the SATS were required to take English Composition.
I think most of the students in those classes were not native English speakers and engineering or other hard science majors.
Like Katiana, my years there were not free of anything quantitative. I was required within my major to take statistics. I also elected to take one math class, because for a couple of semesters I was "Pre-Law" and my adviser recommended it.
I have had an interesting, varied and fulfilling career path, that would not have been possible without the fine liberal arts education that I received. And I know I will be asked, yes I received financial recompense.
I have worked in the following diverse fields - public relations, non-profit fundraising, grant writing, social services, and private investigation. I still work in one of those fields.
If I am not mistaken, Harvard still does not require any classes other than those required by ones academic major.
The problem is that you have a generation of people graduating tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and can expect to spend a decade or more after college paying it back with little return on their investment. The big problem is the system that allows universities to drain families' savings without providing sufficient return. People should have broad educations, and be familiar with a wide range of topics: history, the English language, significant proficiency in a foreign language, economics, computers . . . the list goes on, and even our liberal arts grads aren't always sufficiently-educated in these areas. But it hardly makes sense for everyone to take on a $50,000 burden only to wind up un- or under-employed.
One solution is embracing trade schools, community colleges, and the idea that a four-year school isn't for everyone. It was the dream of our grandparents to send their children to college, but now young people are going to school without a clue, without direction. Look at how many people drink and party their college years away, leaving 4 (or 6 or 8) years later no smarter, no better, no wiser than when they entered.
But that still leaves us with the situation we have now: rich people can afford good educations (from kindergarten through grad school) and poor people are left with few choices beyond the military and the service industry. People deserve better than having to choose between frying hamburgers or murdering foreigners.
People should explore what interests them, and work to improve themselves. With a little time googling one can find pretty much a whole undergraduate education in a lot of fields online (in an afternoon in front of a computer you can find syllabi, reading lists, and notes from real university courses online). As a culture, and compared to other countries and cultures, we've lost this thirst for knowledge and self-improvement. We are very wasteful with our time, and it's no wonder nations around the world are working harder, working smarter, and passing the US by.
If you are going to spend $20,000 (or $200,000) for an education, you should reasonably expect it to pay off. That can be financially (no sense going into massive debt to learn how to play beer pong) or emotionally. But let's move away from the idea that a four-year education is absolutely essential for every 18-year-old in the country.
The average debt for a top 100 school is around 15k. The problem are average students going to for-profits and expensive private schools.
As the daughter and wife of veterans, I find this statement highly offensive.
Suzy, I agree with you completely. The implications of the statement are not only offensive, they're truly ignorant.
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