Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Every time I fly in an airplane I am thankful for the people who designed it and the people who flew it, but I am especially thankful for the people who put it together and those who maintained it.
I appreciate the guy who keeps my aged heat pump going and the guy who repairs my appliances.
I went to college, got an advanced degree, and did well enough to retire before I was 60.
My brother went to a community college, decided two years of sitting in a classroom was all he could take, became an electrician, and did well enough to retire before he was 60. His employer (who made airplane engines ) would have paid for him to get a degree, but he did not want it. He had work he enjoyed doing, no desire to advance up the management ladder, and plenty of time off to enjoy his hobbies.
The communities that are doing well in this economy are very likely those with vocational schools that are turning out the people with skills to attract manufacturers --- those that have not moved off shore.
I do not think that the person who chooses a trade school is incapable of graduating from a four year college. I suspect there are many who could but who would just rather do something hands on.
It is not wrong for colleges and universities to tell potential students what they can expect to achieve with a degree. Like any investment, the potential risks and return will be higher with some than with others.
The best public liberal arts college in the U. S. News and World Report rankings for 2011:
Spoiler
http://www.dean.usma.edu/
I don't know where you get the idea that I am against trades. My own profession, nursing, is considered a trade by many. My husband has a PhD in physics and he could keep a plane running as well as repair a heat pump and our appliances. We rarely call a repair-person, and when we do, it's usually b/c he doesn't have the time, not b/c he can't do the work.
What I AM against is people tracking kids in high school or even earlier as they do in some countries, into vocational programs from which there is no escape. There are people on this forum who regularly recommend same for the US.
My brother-in-law (DH's brother) went to a "trade" high school to study electronics. Fortunately this was one of these high schools, as my district even today has, that also required one to get a regular diploma, where you took courses that could get you admitted to college should you change your mind about the trade you were studying. I say fortunately, because he did so well in the electronics courses that he wanted to learn more, at a higher level. He went on to college with the intent of getting a two-year degree in electronics. He did so well with those courses that he wanted to learn a little more, and decided to pursue a BS in electrical engineering. He graduated with his BSEE in 1968.
My mission in life is beyond making sure the U.S. ranks highly on some math and science exam that no one except eggheads takes seriously anyway.
Good. Feel free to not use any of the technology that is country has invented (Bell Labs averaged one patent per day).
I guess the US should rank dead last in math and science. Tell me that when you come into the ED and need some epinephrine for an anaphylaxis. Oops, sorry, can't give any, my paint brushes are drying and I need to go clean them. Oh well.
Instead, I think people should learn how to make clay rope pots, and sell them at road-side stands. They should throw them at terrorist bombers.
Way beyond. My kids' will be, too. Though they'll likely be quite good at math and science (I majored in math), they're not going to go into engineering "because the U.S. is falling behind," that's just media handwringing.
'splain to me Lucy, why 45% of my engineering lab (truly state-of-the-art high-tech) is from China, and 45% is from India. Maybe it is due to the the fact that many people in this country choose to major in 'useless' subjects. But what do I know... only been doing it for decades, and it is just my opinion (based on observations).
They'll go into engineering if they want to be great engineers.
We'll see... many of mine went to the 'tute', Caltech, Stanford and a few others. Half of them aren't US citizens. The goal to make a successful company is to hire the brightest and best.
Mine in red.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From Animal house:
"Eric 'Otter' Stratton: Sophomore dies in kiln explosion? Oh My God! I just talked to her last week... She was going to make a pot for me"
I guess it is better to make a clay pot, than invent things that Schottky developed.
I don't know where you get the idea that I am against trades. My own profession, nursing, is considered a trade by many. My husband has a PhD in physics and he could keep a plane running as well as repair a heat pump and our appliances. We rarely call a repair-person, and when we do, it's usually b/c he doesn't have the time, not b/c he can't do the work.
What I AM against is people tracking kids in high school or even earlier as they do in some countries, into vocational programs from which there is no escape. There are people on this forum who regularly recommend same for the US.
My brother-in-law (DH's brother) went to a "trade" high school to study electronics. Fortunately this was one of these high schools, as my district even today has, that also required one to get a regular diploma, where you took courses that could get you admitted to college should you change your mind about the trade you were studying. I say fortunately, because he did so well in the electronics courses that he wanted to learn more, at a higher level. He went on to college with the intent of getting a two-year degree in electronics. He did so well with those courses that he wanted to learn a little more, and decided to pursue a BS in electrical engineering. He graduated with his BSEE in 1968.
Your spoiler link didn't work for me.
Sorry, I was agreeing with your statement about the value of trade schools. I should have made myself more clear.
My mission in life is beyond making sure the U.S. ranks highly on some math and science exam that no one except eggheads takes seriously anyway. Way beyond. My kids' will be, too. Though they'll likely be quite good at math and science (I majored in math), they're not going to go into engineering "because the U.S. is falling behind," that's just media handwringing. They'll go into engineering if they want to be great engineers.
Okay, but would you want them majoring in sculpture or art history because it is what they are good at? Would you want your kid living with you at 28? What about 32?
Would you want your kid on anti-anxiety meds because he/she can't function because he/she is so stressed out from living with you?
I have experienced moving in with parents. It is hell. I regret college because I can't find a job. I was stupid when I was 18 because I majored in what I enjoyed and didn't look at the job market. My doc wants me on anti-anxiety meds to deal with the hell I am going through right now.
I think if every 18 year-old saw the hell hole that is my life they would think twice about college and majors.
Okay, but would you want them majoring in sculpture or art history because it is what they are good at? Would you want your kid living with you at 28? What about 32?
Would you want your kid on anti-anxiety meds because he/she can't function because he/she is so stressed out from living with you?
I have experienced moving in with parents. It is hell. I regret college because I can't find a job. I was stupid when I was 18 because I majored in what I enjoyed and didn't look at the job market. My doc wants me on anti-anxiety meds to deal with the hell I am going through right now.
I think if every 18 year-old saw the hell hole that is my life they would think twice about college and majors.
So what do you think you should have done instead of going to college?
So what do you think you should have done instead of going to college?
Majoring (in college) in anything that will give a person a means to have a viable income, and do the 'artsy' stuff as a hobby. Simple, isn't it?
They don't call them 'starving artist sales' at Holiday Inns without a reason.
... I would like to ask all the parents out there who are telling their kids to follow their passions if they want their kids living with them at 30?? At 40?? What about 45? ...
Unfortunately, "follow your passions" is the advice my parents gave to my older brother, now 60. His passion was Tango. He lives at home with my mom and has never generated more than $6,000 in annual revenue (and his expenses exceed his revenue, so he has no income per se - he is subsidized by my mom's pension). He has never held a job. He just attempts to teach Tango as a free-lance instructor to the handful of people who have some interest in it.
The problem with "follow your passions" is there is a distinction between vocation and avocation. A passion might be a vocation, but it also might be an avocation instead.
The OP's assertion that her child will pursue a liberal arts degree is at odds with her later clarification that her child will pursue an MFA and be a practicing artist.
In her child's case, he really *is* pursuing training rather than education.
By the way - I'm all for education.
Think of it this way: if you had a 13 year old daughter, would you prefer she receive Sex Education in school, or Sex Training?
Unfortunately, "follow your passions" is the advice my parents gave to my older brother, now 60. His passion was Tango. He lives at home with my mom and has never generated more than $6,000 in annual revenue (and his expenses exceed his revenue, so he has no income per se - he is subsidized by my mom's pension). He has never held a job. He just attempts to teach Tango as a free-lance instructor to the handful of people who have some interest in it.
The problem with "follow your passions" is there is a distinction between vocation and avocation. A passion might be a vocation, but it also might be an avocation instead.
The OP's assertion that her child will pursue a liberal arts degree is at odds with her later clarification that her child will pursue an MFA and be a practicing artist.
In her child's case, he really *is* pursuing training rather than education.
By the way - I'm all for education.
Think of it this way: if you had a 13 year old daughter, would you prefer she receive Sex Education in school, or Sex Training?
'NOW, what I want is, Facts. Teach these boys and girls nothing but Facts. Facts alone are wanted in life. Plant nothing else, and root out everything else. You can only form the minds of reasoning animals upon Facts: nothing else will ever be of any service to them. This is the principle on which I bring up my own children, and this is the principle on which I bring up these children. Stick to Facts, sir!'
- Charles Dickens, Hard Times (1854)
_______________________________
Much of what passes for education is a waste of time, albeit that now a college education has come to be the ticket to middle-class society. Beyond that, what good is the pursuit of useless studies and advanced academic degrees that only certify learning beyond one’s capacity to think? It seems a tiresome venture with but little prospect for any substantial reward; and yet one sees such masters of arcane knowledge who are good for nothing. Their heads are filled with useless facts. (I am reminded of a noted ichthyologist who prided himself with knowing the Latin names for the entire class Osteichthyes, and whose students joked that the professor was so full of fish that every time he learned of a newly-discovered species another would pop out his backside in an expression of unpardonable French!) One cannot help but think that more useful things might well be learned outside the halls of academe at the local tavern.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
) would have paid for him to get a degree, but he did not want it. He had work he enjoyed doing, no desire to advance up the management ladder, and plenty of time off to enjoy his hobbies. 
Maybe it is due to the the fact that many people in this country choose to major in 'useless' subjects. But what do I know... only been doing it for decades, and it is just my opinion (based on observations).
