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The point I was trying to make in that paragraph is that, with the stigma of trade schools and blue-collar jobs, and with the endless rut that comes with growing up working-poor, people feel like they don't have much choice.
I keep reading about this stigma in these Forums, yet I do not see it in real life. Heck, even in this Forum it seems that vo-tech is the way to go.
I keep reading about this stigma in these Forums, yet I do not see it in real life. Heck, even in this Forum it seems that vo-tech is the way to go.
I think some don't like to be realistic with their own personal limitations. If you aren't a good student you shouldn't be looking at a for profit college to get a degree by exploring more realistic goals. Not everyone can be an engineer or accountant.
There also is no reason you can't work a blue collar job and get a degree eventually as well.
I think many of the posters in this thread are terribly arrogant on both sides of the argument. STEM is no more or less important or relevant than anything else. The real key - the question everyone should be asking is how can I apply my knowledge to solve problems. Designers, artists, mathematicians, writers.... anyone can solve problems. That is what college is supposed to teach - how to research and think critically about the world around you.
Just remember that technology can sooner diagnose medical problems, troubleshoot networks, file taxes or make businesses more efficient than it can write a children's book, solve a design challenge, or question the world. Likewise an artist making art purely for aesthetic value or.... "to bring awareness to something" is meaningless.
Tell me not what you've studied or what you think but what problems you've solved and what you've contributed.
Posts like this show exactly why America is falling tremendously behind in math and science.
You think Indian or Asian parents are telling this to their children? But hey, have your kids follow their passions, just don't complain that they are living in your basement or that the USA cant produce anything anymore.
This.^^^
Living in a parent's basement is not fun. I would like to ask all the parents out there who are telling their kids to follow their passions if they want their kids living with them at 30?? At 40?? What about 45? Okay then, now think about the advice you really want for your kids.
I would like to tell all the dreamer 18 year olds to wake the heck up. What is the probability that you are going to make it as a professional sculptor? 1 in 1,000,000,000 or something like that. Living with mom and dad at 32 and have them gripe at you for being unemployed is NOT FUN.
Lately I have been hearing this phrase on this board - "return for investment" when applied to a university education. It sickens me. It is indicative of a total misunderstanding of a beauty and power of a liberal arts education.
By this logic, perhaps we should just send our children to trade schools,or community colleges, ban the learning of literature, philosophy, theology and the arts!
Even the social sciences have come under attack here! When does it end? When we turn all of our kids into electrical engineers or majors in medical fields?
My cousin just returned from visiting several North Eastern liberal arts universities (highly competitive) and a few hard science oriented institutions. She was disturbed to hear this odious phrase bandied about at two schools.
It turned her off. It turned her daughter off. She will not be applying their.
They had never heard this foolish phrase before. Sadly, I had. It reflects an intrenched anti-intellectuality, and not only a disdain for learning, but a misunderstanding of it!
It is particularly disturbing when it is applied to "older" students with respect to "how long they will live in order to recoup their expenses"
Knowledge is priceless!
And with that, I have decided that I will formally seek to learn more and to accrue yet another degree. There will be no spread sheets involved and the ratio of expense vs. life span will not play a part in this.
Those of you forcing your children to study subjects because they are "hot" right now? I feel sorry for you. More so for your child.
There is nothing more expensive than the futile attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole.
My son will begin studies by following his bliss - a BFA in Art. I am excited to see where this passion leads him.How exciting to have a child with a passion other than money, especially in this day and age!
I do think ROI is crucial to consider, but only if "returns" and "investment" are properly defined for the student in mind. Neither needs to be monetary nor quantifiable.
I think many of the posters in this thread are terribly arrogant on both sides of the argument. STEM is no more or less important or relevant than anything else.
That's a good one.
When someone is having a myocardial infarction, have him/her ask the artist if chartreuse clashes with cyan.
The real key - the question everyone should be asking is how can I apply my knowledge to solve problems. Designers, artists, mathematicians, writers.... anyone can solve problems.
The question is 'are they solving relevant problems'. The guy who painted the lettering on the side of the Enola Gay made a contribution, but I think most would agree that Robert Oppenheimer made just a little bit more of a contribution.
That is what college is supposed to teach - how to research and think critically about the world around you.
Just remember that technology can sooner diagnose medical problems, troubleshoot networks, file taxes or make businesses more efficient than it can write a children's book, solve a design challenge, or question the world. Likewise an artist making art purely for aesthetic value or.... "to bring awareness to something" is meaningless.
"an artist making art purely for aesthetic value or.... "to bring awareness to something" is meaningless". Essentially, except in a very few cases.
Tell me not what you've studied or what you think but what problems you've solved and what you've contributed.
Thats what I hate about college. People always say college equals a better payng job. I know people with college degrees that have low wage paying jobs because they couldnt find anything in their field or they are going back to school for a second degree because of their current job dissatisfaction. I have been in school for almost six years now struggling to find a career that I want to do. I have FINALLY found something. I wish there were more on the job training programs or that trade schools werent looked down on. I think it all comes down to snobbery/elitism. That reminds me of my ex who would rub it in my face that he has a college degree. Good for you. Do you want a cookie?
Gatornation answered this well, but I'll add-how many people do you know with NO college who are making six figure salaries? I don't think trade schools are looked down upon, especially not on this forum.
Living in a parent's basement is not fun. I would like to ask all the parents out there who are telling their kids to follow their passions if they want their kids living with them at 30?? At 40?? What about 45? Okay then, now think about the advice you really want for your kids.
I would like to tell all the dreamer 18 year olds to wake the heck up. What is the probability that you are going to make it as a professional sculptor? 1 in 1,000,000,000 or something like that. Living with mom and dad at 32 and have them gripe at you for being unemployed is NOT FUN.
My mission in life is beyond making sure the U.S. ranks highly on some math and science exam that no one except eggheads takes seriously anyway. Way beyond. My kids' will be, too. Though they'll likely be quite good at math and science (I majored in math), they're not going to go into engineering "because the U.S. is falling behind," that's just media handwringing. They'll go into engineering if they want to be great engineers.
I went to a funeral recently for a man who had little money, and in fact, his last place was a one bedroom apartment. He earned his living as a coach at a community recreation center and immensely enjoyed coaching kids for 20 years. At his funeral men, women and children spoke for two hours about how this man changed their lives. Changing peoples lives through service is a very valid aspiration instead of acquiring things and bigger places to store those things. IMHO, of course.
I think it's important that one use their talents well, but success and what that means, is in the eye of the beholder.
Gatornation answered this well, but I'll add-how many people do you know with NO college who are making six figure salaries? I don't think trade schools are looked down upon, especially not on this forum.
Every time I fly in an airplane I am thankful for the people who designed it and the people who flew it, but I am especially thankful for the people who put it together and those who maintained it.
I appreciate the guy who keeps my aged heat pump going and the guy who repairs my appliances.
I went to college, got an advanced degree, and did well enough to retire before I was 60.
My brother went to a community college, decided two years of sitting in a classroom was all he could take, became an electrician, and did well enough to retire before he was 60. His employer (who made airplane engines ) would have paid for him to get a degree, but he did not want it. He had work he enjoyed doing, no desire to advance up the management ladder, and plenty of time off to enjoy his hobbies.
The communities that are doing well in this economy are very likely those with vocational schools that are turning out the people with skills to attract manufacturers --- those that have not moved off shore.
I do not think that the person who chooses a trade school is incapable of graduating from a four year college. I suspect there are many who could but who would just rather do something hands on.
It is not wrong for colleges and universities to tell potential students what they can expect to achieve with a degree. Like any investment, the potential risks and return will be higher with some than with others.
The best public liberal arts college in the U. S. News and World Report rankings for 2011:
Spoiler
http://www.dean.usma.edu/
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) would have paid for him to get a degree, but he did not want it. He had work he enjoyed doing, no desire to advance up the management ladder, and plenty of time off to enjoy his hobbies. 
